From bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org Fri Dec 12 17:24:57 2003 From: bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org (Baron von Skippy) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:24:57 -0500 Subject: [Bnomic-private] Can you hear me now? Message-ID: ...good. Who's on this list, anyway, and who isn't? [[BvS]] _________________________________________________________________ Tired of slow downloads and busy signals? Get a high-speed Internet connection! Comparison-shop your local high-speed providers here. https://broadband.msn.com From bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org Fri Dec 12 19:36:22 2003 From: bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org (bd) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:36:22 -0500 Subject: [Bnomic-private] Can you hear me now? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312121436.26063.bdonlan@bd-home-comp.no-ip.org> =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Friday 12 December 2003 12:24 pm, Baron von Skippy wrote: > Subject: Can you hear me now? Depends. What's in it for me? > ...good. > > Who's on this list, anyway, and who isn't? Me. Probably. =2D --=20 bd There are three things I always forget. Names, faces -- the third I can't remember. -- Italo Svevo =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/2hi5+hz2VlChukwRAl4aAJ9irGVkTehYCS3SqxFJckzUqI/oegCeP2kw x/3MK9pooDy7/MO8ndHCf8U=3D =3DNvQq =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org Sat Dec 13 16:32:09 2003 From: bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org (SkArcher) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 16:32:09 -0000 Subject: [Bnomic-private] test Message-ID: likewise, just pretend this isn't here, mmm'kay? -- SkArcher From bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Dec 14 17:31:14 2003 From: bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org (bd) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 12:31:14 -0500 Subject: [Bnomic-private] Re: State of Emergency In-Reply-To: <80CEA8D7-2E54-11D8-BCFC-000A95842464@cornell.edu> References: <80CEA8D7-2E54-11D8-BCFC-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <200312141231.18460.bdonlan@bd-home-comp.no-ip.org> =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sunday 14 December 2003 11:42 am, Daniel Lepage wrote: > On Sunday, December 14, 2003, at 11:31 AM, SkArcher wrote: > > On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:27:43 -0500, Daniel Lepage > > > > wrote: > >> I, BvS, bd, Glotmorf, Iain, Sagitta, and SkArcher are currently > >> subscribed to the list; everyone else can subscribe at > >> . > >> > >> Additionally, our use of this list will send messages to the > >> following ex-players: > >> Wild Card, Naath, The Voice, Orc in a Spacesuit, Squire of Dimness, > >> and Athena. > >> > >> I wonder if any of them will be motivated to rejoin... > > > > I suspect that most, if not all, will have unsubscribed from the list > > due to the monthly reminders of its presence. You never know though. > > No, that's the list I got by checking the "subscribers" page. > > Also, I've discovered that if mail is sent to all players *and* to one > of the bnomic-p* lists, it gets held up 'waiting for moderator > approval' because it has too many recipients. Therefore, if we're going > to use it, we cannot post to all players and to the list at the same > time. Testing use of BCC to circumvent that =2D --=20 bd I want a VEGETARIAN BURRITO to go ... with EXTRA MSG!! =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD4DBQE/3J5m+hz2VlChukwRAmNfAJY3p06kUvltwJ/biLJ3qkfrPzUYAKCcbxTI 27jPDwsjhxNgibmclmyipA=3D=3D =3DSd4H =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org Mon Dec 15 01:50:55 2003 From: bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org (bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:50:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Bnomic-private] Re: BNomic-Private digest, Vol 1 #54 - 2 msgs Message-ID: <20031215015055.2231F393A@sitemail.everyone.net> > Who's on this list, anyway, and who isn't? I'm here, to one extent or another. McGee. _____________________________________________________________ Save rainforest for free with a Planet-Save.com e-mail account: http://www.planet-save.com From bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org Mon Dec 15 02:29:37 2003 From: bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org (SkArcher) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 02:29:37 -0000 Subject: [Bnomic-private] Fwd: Re: Forum and Admin, Announcement of Gamestate In-Reply-To: References: <701E31B8-2EA3-11D8-9326-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Message-ID: *mutter* pain in the ass, messages reply to sender ------- Forwarded message ------- From: SkArcher To: Daniel Lepage Subject: Re: Forum and Admin, Announcement of Gamestate Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 02:26:03 -0000 > On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 21:07:30 -0500, Daniel Lepage > wrote: > >> >> Usually, first-round voting solves the problem, so we'll probably be >> done as of the 23rd. >> >> Does anyone have any objections to this? >> > > No > > Questions: How many SoEs have there been in the game, why and when? > > > SkArcher -- From bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org Mon Dec 15 02:52:24 2003 From: bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 21:52:24 -0500 Subject: [Bnomic-private] Re: Forum and Admin, Announcement of Gamestate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sunday, December 14, 2003, at 09:26 PM, SkArcher wrote: > On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 21:07:30 -0500, Daniel Lepage > wrote: > >> >> Usually, first-round voting solves the problem, so we'll probably be >> done as of the 23rd. >> >> Does anyone have any objections to this? >> > > No > > Questions: How many SoEs have there been in the game, why and when? Well, nweek 1 was basically a SoE without r0... the first real one happened during the DimShips crisis, when a wording difficulty resulted in many dimensions being undefined, such as our Entropies; the game might have been in a state of perpetual apocalypse, or maybe in a state of perpetual "Wonko wins"; we weren't sure, so we went on emergency mode. It happened again, I think, when I won from the Gnome Scam - another four or five players immediately copied me, and we were in danger of the clock going off for two wweeks or so, with a lot of apocalypse in between. So we Recognized then, too. I thought there was a third, but I don't remember the whys or wherefores... if the records were up I could find out, but they aren't. To get the nweeks of any of those, I'd need to check the list archives. -- Wonko From bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org Wed Dec 17 03:45:34 2003 From: bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 22:45:34 -0500 Subject: [Bnomic-private] Fwd: Refreshments Message-ID: <77E88A21-3043-11D8-9134-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Odd... I sent this to bnomic-public, and did not receive it back. If the backup mailing lists fail, we might have to simply wait for nomic.net to come back up... Begin forwarded message: > From: Daniel Lepage > Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 8:08:51 PM America/New_York > To: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org > Subject: Refreshments > > I issue a Refresh Prop: > {{ > __Cleaning Up__ > > Amend r1282 to read: > {{ > __Seniority__ > Once a player has been a player for at least as long as six complete > consecutive months, that player recieves one point of Respect and the > title "Veteran of B Nomic." > > Once a player has been a player for at least as long as twelve > complete consecutive months, that player loses the title "Veteran of B > Nomic" and recieves three points of Respect and the title "Patriarch > of B Nomic" if their Gender is Male, "Matriarch of B Nomic" if their > Gender is Female, or "Oligarch of B Nomic" if their gender is Drone. > > Once a player has been a player for at least as long as twenty-four > complete consecutive months, that player loses the title given them > under the previous paragraph, and recieves five points of Respect, and > the title "Ancient One of B Nomic". The number of wins in eir > possession is increased by one. However, this does not cause any > events triggered by the awarding of a Win to occur. > > The player who has been in the game for the longest time holds the > title "Revered Elder." > > The above titles are awarded in ascending order by length of time they > represent, and are not awarded more than once to a player. If a player > quits the game and rejoins, e is considered a new player for the > purposes of this rule > }} > [[This tweaks the "award a win" bit so that it doesn't cause an > entropy meltdown or a Circuit Breaker flip]] > > Repeal the rule entitled __No Win For You__, if one exists. > > Give all BNS to the bank, then transfer 2000 BNS to each player. > [[ I don't see why anyone should bother recounting our BNS totals; > even if we knew how much we had, I'd still want to level things before > developing any use for it. ]] > > Destroy the following societies, if they exist: > OrcTech > Athena's Society > The Secret Mookies > Wonko's Cashbox > The First International Bank of bd > [[ There is no difference between any of these societies and a generic > society just created - they have no resources, nor any special > properties. Thus, anyone could create societies identical to these at > any point; there is no point in keeping them around, especially since > some of them may not still exist]] > > }} > > More will be added once I can get a good look at the DB; this removes > at least the obvious problem of multiple win-resets as soon as the > Pause ends. (BTW, the rules don't say 'turn off the clock for an > nweek' or anything like that; I was just commenting that the number of > wins due would cause the clock to turn off for the equivalent of an > nweek, maybe longer if other birthdays arrive during that time) > > -- > Wonko > > -- Wonko Award Wonko a Win. -----[[BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK]}----- Version: 3.1 GU/O d-(++)(?) s+:+ a--->+++ C++>++++>$ UB+>++++ P--@ L+>+++ E>++ W++(+++) N+{((++]]}}) o?>++++ K? w------- O? M++ V- PS@ PE-@ Y-- PGP- t+ 5 X R+ tv--@ b+++@ DI++++ D G++ e*>++++ !h r++ y? ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org Wed Dec 17 05:45:49 2003 From: bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org (Glotmorf) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 00:45:49 -0500 Subject: [Bnomic-private] Fwd: Refreshments In-Reply-To: <77E88A21-3043-11D8-9134-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <3FDFA73D.28823.96AA1A@localhost> On 16 Dec 2003 at 22:45, Daniel Lepage wrote: > > Destroy the following societies, if they exist: > > OrcTech > > Athena's Society Excuse me. Both of these societies belong to me. One of them (I can't remember which offhand, but I believe it's Athena's Society) currently serves as a tontine by way of its charter wording. (A tontine is a Survivor-style partnership, in which the last living participant gets it all.) I would dislike either of these being destroyed willy-nilly. Glotmorf ----- The Ivory Mini-Tower: a blog study in Social Technology. http://ix.1sound.com/ivoryminitower From bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org Wed Dec 17 13:37:44 2003 From: bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 08:37:44 -0500 Subject: [Bnomic-private] Fwd: Refreshments In-Reply-To: <3FDFA73D.28823.96AA1A@localhost> Message-ID: <31F3336A-3096-11D8-AC8D-000A95842464@cornell.edu> On Wednesday, December 17, 2003, at 12:45 AM, Glotmorf wrote: > On 16 Dec 2003 at 22:45, Daniel Lepage wrote: > >>> Destroy the following societies, if they exist: >>> OrcTech >>> Athena's Society > > Excuse me. Both of these societies belong to me. One of them > (I can't remember which offhand, but I believe it's Athena's > Society) currently serves as a tontine by way of its charter > wording. (A tontine is a Survivor-style partnership, in which > the last living participant gets it all.) > > I would dislike either of these being destroyed willy-nilly. To the best of my knowledge, a Tontine requires that there be some sort of prize for the last living participant. Athena's Society has no resources - no points, no bandwidth, no BNS, not even the now-defunct RUs. There is no way it could function as a Tontine in any meaningful way, AFAICT. -- Wonko From bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org Wed Dec 17 14:16:33 2003 From: bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org (Zarpint Jeremy Cook) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 09:16:33 -0500 Subject: [Bnomic-private] Fwd: Refreshments In-Reply-To: <77E88A21-3043-11D8-9134-000A95842464@cornell.edu> References: <77E88A21-3043-11D8-9134-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Message-ID: I received three copies eventually (by 4 AM this morning EST). You need an -arch title for Undeclared Gender. [Underarch?] To quote one "Emil Bleehall", "In recognition of each being's merit, regardless of gender..." If the Revered Elder turns two years old, does e get the Ancient One title and the point bonus? Or just the bonus? Or neither? Paragraph 5 is not entirely clear to me. And should we unflip the Circuit Breaker after your win as well? Zarpint On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, Daniel Lepage wrote: > Odd... I sent this to bnomic-public, and did not receive it back. If > the backup mailing lists fail, we might have to simply wait for > nomic.net to come back up... > > Begin forwarded message: > > > From: Daniel Lepage > > Date: Tue Dec 16, 2003 8:08:51 PM America/New_York > > To: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org > > Subject: Refreshments > > > > I issue a Refresh Prop: > > {{ > > __Cleaning Up__ > > > > Amend r1282 to read: > > {{ > > __Seniority__ > > Once a player has been a player for at least as long as six complete > > consecutive months, that player recieves one point of Respect and the > > title "Veteran of B Nomic." > > > > Once a player has been a player for at least as long as twelve > > complete consecutive months, that player loses the title "Veteran of B > > Nomic" and recieves three points of Respect and the title "Patriarch > > of B Nomic" if their Gender is Male, "Matriarch of B Nomic" if their > > Gender is Female, or "Oligarch of B Nomic" if their gender is Drone. > > > > Once a player has been a player for at least as long as twenty-four > > complete consecutive months, that player loses the title given them > > under the previous paragraph, and recieves five points of Respect, and > > the title "Ancient One of B Nomic". The number of wins in eir > > possession is increased by one. However, this does not cause any > > events triggered by the awarding of a Win to occur. > > > > The player who has been in the game for the longest time holds the > > title "Revered Elder." > > > > The above titles are awarded in ascending order by length of time they > > represent, and are not awarded more than once to a player. If a player > > quits the game and rejoins, e is considered a new player for the > > purposes of this rule > > }} > > [[This tweaks the "award a win" bit so that it doesn't cause an > > entropy meltdown or a Circuit Breaker flip]] > > > > Repeal the rule entitled __No Win For You__, if one exists. > > > > Give all BNS to the bank, then transfer 2000 BNS to each player. > > [[ I don't see why anyone should bother recounting our BNS totals; > > even if we knew how much we had, I'd still want to level things before > > developing any use for it. ]] > > > > Destroy the following societies, if they exist: > > OrcTech > > Athena's Society > > The Secret Mookies > > Wonko's Cashbox > > The First International Bank of bd > > [[ There is no difference between any of these societies and a generic > > society just created - they have no resources, nor any special > > properties. Thus, anyone could create societies identical to these at > > any point; there is no point in keeping them around, especially since > > some of them may not still exist]] > > > > }} > > > > More will be added once I can get a good look at the DB; this removes > > at least the obvious problem of multiple win-resets as soon as the > > Pause ends. (BTW, the rules don't say 'turn off the clock for an > > nweek' or anything like that; I was just commenting that the number of > > wins due would cause the clock to turn off for the equivalent of an > > nweek, maybe longer if other birthdays arrive during that time) > > > > -- > > Wonko > > > > > -- > Wonko > Award Wonko a Win. > -----[[BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK]}----- > Version: 3.1 > GU/O d-(++)(?) s+:+ a--->+++ C++>++++>$ UB+>++++ P--@ L+>+++ E>++ > W++(+++) N+{((++]]}}) o?>++++ K? w------- O? M++ V- PS@ PE-@ Y-- PGP- > t+ 5 X R+ tv--@ b+++@ DI++++ D G++ e*>++++ !h r++ y? > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > > > _______________________________________________ > BNomic-Private mailing list > BNomic-Private@ysolde.ucam.org > http://www.ysolde.ucam.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bnomic-private > -- Zarpint "All thy toiling only breeds new dreams, new dreams; Jeremy Cook there is no truth saving in thine own heart." mcfoufou@umich.edu --W.B. Yeats, The Song of the Happy Shepherd grep -r kibo / "Movements are the problem, not the answer to problems." From bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org Wed Dec 17 19:49:22 2003 From: bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org (Bryan Donlan) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 14:49:22 -0500 Subject: [Bnomic-private] Re: [BNomic-Public] Re: State of Emergency In-Reply-To: <651387BE-304D-11D8-9436-000A95842464@cornell.edu> References: <651387BE-304D-11D8-9436-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <200312171449.29985.bdonlan@bd-home-comp.no-ip.org> =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 16 December 2003 11:56 pm, Daniel Lepage wrote: > I think we may now be in a state of Concerned Emergency... I've sent > the message below to both b-public and b-private, and neither has come > back to me. Is anyone else having problems with the backup lists? > > It shouldn't be too bad - the normal lists should be up by tomorrow. > > Anyway, here's my first Refresh prop. I intend to revise it, once I can > see the whole societies and roster pages: > > > I issue a Refresh Prop: > {{ > __Cleaning Up__ [snippage] Since nomic.net is coming back, how about setting the public forum and the= =20 administrator back? > > }} > > More will be added once I can get a good look at the DB; this removes > at least the obvious problem of multiple win-resets as soon as the > Pause ends. (BTW, the rules don't say 'turn off the clock for an nweek' > or anything like that; I was just commenting that the number of wins > due would cause the clock to turn off for the equivalent of an nweek, > maybe longer if other birthdays arrive during that time) =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/4LNJ+hz2VlChukwRAtbnAJ9H+GMkxrl5a/YrW5ad9oS7j6wkBQCfbQFy CpZ/gn3tNcl7UKUnMPplXCY=3D =3DiSFC =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org Wed Dec 17 21:39:40 2003 From: bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 16:39:40 -0500 Subject: [Bnomic-private] Re: [BNomic-Public] Re: State of Emergency In-Reply-To: <200312171449.29985.bdonlan@bd-home-comp.no-ip.org> Message-ID: <8522A81B-30D9-11D8-8DCA-000A95842464@cornell.edu> On Wednesday, December 17, 2003, at 09:16 AM, Zarpint Jeremy Cook wrote: > You need an -arch title for Undeclared Gender. [Underarch?] > To quote one "Emil Bleehall", > "In recognition of each being's merit, regardless of gender..." Neutriarch, maybe? > If the Revered Elder turns two years old, does e get the Ancient One > title > and the point bonus? Or just the bonus? Or neither? Paragraph 5 is not > entirely clear to me. That's a bug in the original rule; I'll fix that. > And should we unflip the Circuit Breaker after your win as well? The new rule says: >> However, this does not cause any >> events triggered by the awarding of a Win to occur. This covers resets, grid wipes, clockstops, and circuit breakers, to name a few. I'll add that this takes precedence. On Wednesday, December 17, 2003, at 02:49 PM, Bryan Donlan wrote: > Since nomic.net is coming back, how about setting the public forum and > the > administrator back? Not needed - I'm not the Game Admin, nor is b-public an official forum. Rather, b-public and I are Emergency equipment, defined only in the context of r0. The rules still state explicitly that Dave is the admin for the purposes of everything else, and s-business is still a public forum. Just to be safe, though, I'll add that. -- Wonko From bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org Wed Dec 17 22:15:58 2003 From: bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org (Glotmorf) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:15:58 -0500 Subject: [Bnomic-private] Fwd: Refreshments In-Reply-To: <31F3336A-3096-11D8-AC8D-000A95842464@cornell.edu> References: <3FDFA73D.28823.96AA1A@localhost> Message-ID: <3FE08F4E.3562.8D6964@localhost> On 17 Dec 2003 at 8:37, Daniel Lepage wrote: > > On Wednesday, December 17, 2003, at 12:45 AM, Glotmorf wrote: > > > On 16 Dec 2003 at 22:45, Daniel Lepage wrote: > > > >>> Destroy the following societies, if they exist: > >>> OrcTech > >>> Athena's Society > > > > Excuse me. Both of these societies belong to me. One of them > > (I can't remember which offhand, but I believe it's Athena's > > Society) currently serves as a tontine by way of its charter > > wording. (A tontine is a Survivor-style partnership, in which > > the last living participant gets it all.) > > > > I would dislike either of these being destroyed willy-nilly. > > To the best of my knowledge, a Tontine requires that there be some sort > of prize for the last living participant. Athena's Society has no > resources - no points, no bandwidth, no BNS, not even the now-defunct > RUs. There is no way it could function as a Tontine in any meaningful > way, AFAICT. Like I said, it's in the charter wording. The charter requires players who are about to be GCd to transfer all eir points to the remaining members. This applied to Mr. in a Spacesuit. What have I got...an hour and a half? Glotmorf ----- The Ivory Mini-Tower: a blog study in Social Technology. http://ix.1sound.com/ivoryminitower From bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org Wed Dec 17 22:52:49 2003 From: bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org (Zarpint Jeremy Cook) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:52:49 -0500 Subject: [Bnomic-private] Re: State of Emergency In-Reply-To: <8522A81B-30D9-11D8-8DCA-000A95842464@cornell.edu> References: <8522A81B-30D9-11D8-8DCA-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Message-ID: Yeah, the rule 0 emergency halt should be in the refresh. Also, we need to know what to set the clock to when we start, and what the current rules are...do we know? On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Daniel Lepage wrote: > On Wednesday, December 17, 2003, at 09:16 AM, Zarpint Jeremy Cook wrote: > > > You need an -arch title for Undeclared Gender. [Underarch?] > > To quote one "Emil Bleehall", > > "In recognition of each being's merit, regardless of gender..." > > Neutriarch, maybe? Not the best, since Undeclared isn't the same as Neuter...Drone is more like Neuter. > > And should we unflip the Circuit Breaker after your win as well? > > The new rule says: > >> However, this does not cause any > >> events triggered by the awarding of a Win to occur. > > This covers resets, grid wipes, clockstops, and circuit breakers, to > name a few. > I'll add that this takes precedence. No, I meant where you wrote "Award Wonko a Win", if that's still there. Zarpint the Incomplete -- Zarpint "All thy toiling only breeds new dreams, new dreams; Jeremy Cook there is no truth saving in thine own heart." mcfoufou@umich.edu --W.B. Yeats, The Song of the Happy Shepherd grep -r kibo / "Movements are the problem, not the answer to problems." From bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org Thu Dec 18 03:08:53 2003 From: bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 22:08:53 -0500 Subject: [Bnomic-private] Re: State of Emergency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8287E0B2-3107-11D8-8DCA-000A95842464@cornell.edu> On Wednesday, December 17, 2003, at 05:52 PM, Zarpint Jeremy Cook wrote: > > Yeah, the rule 0 emergency halt should be in the refresh. > Also, we need to know what to set the clock to when we start, and what > the > current rules are...do we know? I'll add the first two; we know what the current rules are, they're just not available for view at the moment. They should be up soon... > > On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Daniel Lepage wrote: > >> On Wednesday, December 17, 2003, at 09:16 AM, Zarpint Jeremy Cook >> wrote: >> >>> You need an -arch title for Undeclared Gender. [Underarch?] >>> To quote one "Emil Bleehall", >>> "In recognition of each being's merit, regardless of gender..." >> >> Neutriarch, maybe? > > Not the best, since Undeclared isn't the same as Neuter...Drone is more > like Neuter. How about at Wafflearch (wahf-lee-ark, not wah-ful-ark)? Since they can't make up their minds about what gender to be. > >>> And should we unflip the Circuit Breaker after your win as well? >> >> The new rule says: >>>> However, this does not cause any >>>> events triggered by the awarding of a Win to occur. >> >> This covers resets, grid wipes, clockstops, and circuit breakers, to >> name a few. >> I'll add that this takes precedence. > > No, I meant where you wrote "Award Wonko a Win", if that's still there. That's not in the prop, that's just my signature. It's there so that if I ever forget to add a closing delimiter, it won't result in a lot of random signature stuff being added to the gamestate. It will result in a lot of intentional signature stuff being added to the gamestate ;) A full rewrite of my refresh prop is being withheld until I'm certain of the gamestate; in the meantime, here's a draft version: {{ __Cleaning Up 2.0__ Amend r1282 to read: {{ __Seniority__ There exist five groups of players called Age Groups. No player may ever be in more than one age group. All players who have been playing for less than two nweeks are in the Newbie age group. Such players are called Newbies. All players who have been playing for more than two nweeks but less than six months are in the Experienced age group. Such players have no special description for their age group. All players who have been playing for between six months and one year are in the Veteran age group. Such players are called Veterans. When a player becomes a Veteran, e receives one point of Respect. All players who have been playing for between one year and two years are in the Oligarch age group. Such players may be referred to as Oligarchs. They may also be referred to by whichever of the following titles matches their gender: Male: Patriarch Female: Matriarch Drone: Neutriarch Undeclared: Waffliarch When a player becomes an Oligarch, e receives three points of Respect. All players who have been playing for more than two years are in the Elder age group. Such players may be referred to as Ancients. They may also be referred to by the title matching their genders as described in the above section, with "Elder" prepended to the title. When a player becomes an Ancient, e receives five points of Respect, and the number of Wins in eir possession increases by one. However, this does not cause any events triggered by the awarding of a Win to occur. This supersedes any and all rules which govern the events triggered by a Win. If a player quits the game and rejoins, e is considered a new player for the purposes of this rule; that is, e will begin over as a Newbie. The player who has been in the game for the longest time holds the title "Revered Elder." }} [[This addresses all previously mentioned problems with this rule, I believe, and clarifies the behavior of the age classes.]] Supress the Win and the points of Respect that would be given to Iain under the preceding rule. [[One could argue that e should receive them again, since e's never been an Ancient in this sense before.]] Repeal the rule entitled __No Win For You__, if one exists. Give all BNS to the bank, then transfer 2000 BNS to each player. [[ I don't see why anyone should bother recounting our BNS totals; even if we knew how much we had, I'd still want to level things before developing any use for it. ]] Add to the end of r0 the text: {{ If, during an emergency, a majority of the most recently recognized body of players recognizes that there is no longer an emergency, the Procedure immediately ends, if it is currently happening, and the Emergency ends with no change to the state of the game. }} Replace the text of the rule entitled __An Upstanding Citizen__ with: {{ A player is said to be Upstanding if and only if they have nonegative Charm, Activity, and Respect. A Player who isn't Upstanding may not be awarded a Win. This rule supersedes all rules that award wins. }} [[It was complained that the Upstanding rule was too limiting. This relaxes the restrictions to allow zeroed dimensions as well.]] Destroy the following societies, if they exist: OrcTech Athena's Society The Secret Mookies Wonko's Cashbox The First International Bank of bd [[ There is no difference between any of these societies and a generic society just created - they have no resources, nor any special properties. Thus, anyone could create societies identical to these at any point; there is no point in keeping them around, especially since some of them may not still exist. Athena's Society does not have the power to enforce its Tontine regulations - a player on the verge of Garbage Collection must be On Leave, and On Leave players may not take actions. Which is probably not a good thing, as coming On Leave is an action. Interestingly enough, it is legal for a player to come Off Leave if the Clock is Off, since the rule later notes that players may come On or Off Leave even while the Clock is off. But when it's on, taking any action in the game is illegal for them. So we'll fix that too: ]] Replace the text of r205 with: {{ Each player, at any given time, shall be either On Leave or Off Leave. Any player who is Off Leave may, by posting a message on a public forum, declare emself to be On Leave. Any player who is On Leave may, by posting a message on a public forum, declare emself to be Off Leave. By taking any game action on a public forum, a player who is On Leave automatically, by implication, declares emself to be Off Leave. A player who is On Leave cannot be selected by any process which randomly selects a player, and may not take any game actions except coming Off Leave. If more than 2/3 of all players are On Leave, The Clock shall become Off until such time as at least 1/3 of all players are Off Leave. Players may place emselves On Leave or Off Leave while The Clock is Off. At any time, whether On Leave or Off Leave, a player may specify any amount of time, using any readily understandable measurement (ntime or regular time), with an absolute limit of one year, to be Lurking. Any player who is Lurking may cease to be by declaring such. Any player who is not already On Leave, whose Activity has decreased for two consecutive nweeks, and is not Lurking, shall be placed On Leave, and also be made On Forced Leave until such time e is not On Leave. }} [[This fixes a typo, and allows players that are On Leave to come Off Leave]] Set the Clock to nweek 55, nday 3. [[where it was when we stopped; to the best of my knowledge, it's still there.]] }} -- Wonko From bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org Thu Dec 18 04:10:22 2003 From: bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org (Glotmorf) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 23:10:22 -0500 Subject: [Bnomic-private] Re: State of Emergency In-Reply-To: <8287E0B2-3107-11D8-8DCA-000A95842464@cornell.edu> References: Message-ID: <3FE0E25E.24418.179651@localhost> On 17 Dec 2003 at 22:08, Daniel Lepage wrote: > Athena's Society does not have the power to enforce its Tontine > regulations - a player on the verge of Garbage Collection must be On > Leave, and On Leave players may not take actions. Which is probably not > a good thing, as coming On Leave is an action. Interestingly, Athena's Society's charter was considered to have had the power to enforce its Tontine on Orc in a Spacesuit; eir points got transferred to the remaining members just before e got GCed, and that was sufficiently long ago that it's now a legal action. Interestingly, r205, in the most recent form I have on file (205/5), says a player comes Off Leave when e performs an action. It then goes on to say that while a player is On Leave, e cannot perform actions. If we were to look at the combination of these two, one might interpret it to say that any actual action a player performs must be while Off Leave, and if e happens to be On Leave at the time that's assumed to end as soon as the action is performed. In which case, Mr. in a Spacesuit's compulsory action of yielding all eir points to eir fellow Athenians should have taken em Off Leave, at which point e'd be GCed three nweeks later instead. Still works, though. Glotmorf ----- The Ivory Mini-Tower: a blog study in Social Technology. http://ix.1sound.com/ivoryminitower From bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org Thu Dec 18 04:19:37 2003 From: bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 23:19:37 -0500 Subject: [Bnomic-private] Re: State of Emergency In-Reply-To: <3FE0E25E.24418.179651@localhost> Message-ID: <645CB260-3111-11D8-8DCA-000A95842464@cornell.edu> On Wednesday, December 17, 2003, at 11:10 PM, Glotmorf wrote: > On 17 Dec 2003 at 22:08, Daniel Lepage wrote: > >> Athena's Society does not have the power to enforce its Tontine >> regulations - a player on the verge of Garbage Collection must be On >> Leave, and On Leave players may not take actions. Which is probably >> not >> a good thing, as coming On Leave is an action. > > Interestingly, Athena's Society's charter was considered to > have had the power to enforce its Tontine on Orc in a > Spacesuit; eir points got transferred to the remaining members > just before e got GCed, and that was sufficiently long ago > that it's now a legal action. > > Interestingly, r205, in the most recent form I have on file > (205/5), says a player comes Off Leave when e performs an > action. It then goes on to say that while a player is On > Leave, e cannot perform actions. If we were to look at the > combination of these two, one might interpret it to say that > any actual action a player performs must be while Off Leave, > and if e happens to be On Leave at the time that's assumed to > end as soon as the action is performed. > > In which case, Mr. in a Spacesuit's compulsory action of > yielding all eir points to eir fellow Athenians should have > taken em Off Leave, at which point e'd be GCed three nweeks > later instead. R205 states that a player comes Off Leave when e takes an action. It also states that e cannot take actions. Therefore, e cannot come Off Leave. Your logic requires that posting an action to a public forum causes you to take that action; this is not true if the action is one forbidden to you by the rules, and for a player On Leave all actions are forbidden. I believe that Mr. in a Spacesuit's destruction and the subsequent reclamation of eir possessions by Athena's Society was illegal; it only happened because of the Statute of Limitations. -- Wonko From bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org Thu Dec 18 04:55:06 2003 From: bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org (SkArcher) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 04:55:06 -0000 Subject: [Bnomic-private] Re: State of Emergency In-Reply-To: <645CB260-3111-11D8-8DCA-000A95842464@cornell.edu> References: <645CB260-3111-11D8-8DCA-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 23:19:37 -0500, Daniel Lepage wrote: > > On Wednesday, December 17, 2003, at 11:10 PM, Glotmorf wrote: > >> On 17 Dec 2003 at 22:08, Daniel Lepage wrote: >> >>> Athena's Society does not have the power to enforce its Tontine >>> regulations - a player on the verge of Garbage Collection must be On >>> Leave, and On Leave players may not take actions. Which is probably not >>> a good thing, as coming On Leave is an action. >> >> Interestingly, Athena's Society's charter was considered to >> have had the power to enforce its Tontine on Orc in a >> Spacesuit; eir points got transferred to the remaining members >> just before e got GCed, and that was sufficiently long ago >> that it's now a legal action. >> >> Interestingly, r205, in the most recent form I have on file >> (205/5), says a player comes Off Leave when e performs an >> action. It then goes on to say that while a player is On >> Leave, e cannot perform actions. If we were to look at the >> combination of these two, one might interpret it to say that >> any actual action a player performs must be while Off Leave, >> and if e happens to be On Leave at the time that's assumed to >> end as soon as the action is performed. >> >> In which case, Mr. in a Spacesuit's compulsory action of >> yielding all eir points to eir fellow Athenians should have >> taken em Off Leave, at which point e'd be GCed three nweeks >> later instead. > > R205 states that a player comes Off Leave when e takes an action. It > also states that e cannot take actions. Therefore, e cannot come Off > Leave. Your logic requires that posting an action to a public forum > causes you to take that action; this is not true if the action is one > forbidden to you by the rules, and for a player On Leave all actions are > forbidden. > > I believe that Mr. in a Spacesuit's destruction and the subsequent > reclamation of eir possessions by Athena's Society was illegal; it only > happened because of the Statute of Limitations. > the statement requiring players of Athena society surely acts with the enforcement of the rule which states something like 'Societies have the right to restrict or mandate players actions in ways specified in their charter? (sorry, don't have a set of rules handy right now) Because this would be a limitation on the players actions, that rule permits (and indeed, enforces) their forced action of giving out all eir points. SkArcher -- From bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org Thu Dec 18 05:03:24 2003 From: bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org (Glotmorf) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 00:03:24 -0500 Subject: [Bnomic-private] Re: State of Emergency In-Reply-To: <645CB260-3111-11D8-8DCA-000A95842464@cornell.edu> References: <3FE0E25E.24418.179651@localhost> Message-ID: <3FE0EECC.12383.4825E1@localhost> On 17 Dec 2003 at 23:19, Daniel Lepage wrote: > > On Wednesday, December 17, 2003, at 11:10 PM, Glotmorf wrote: > > > On 17 Dec 2003 at 22:08, Daniel Lepage wrote: > > > >> Athena's Society does not have the power to enforce its Tontine > >> regulations - a player on the verge of Garbage Collection must be On > >> Leave, and On Leave players may not take actions. Which is probably > >> not > >> a good thing, as coming On Leave is an action. > > > > Interestingly, Athena's Society's charter was considered to > > have had the power to enforce its Tontine on Orc in a > > Spacesuit; eir points got transferred to the remaining members > > just before e got GCed, and that was sufficiently long ago > > that it's now a legal action. > > > > Interestingly, r205, in the most recent form I have on file > > (205/5), says a player comes Off Leave when e performs an > > action. It then goes on to say that while a player is On > > Leave, e cannot perform actions. If we were to look at the > > combination of these two, one might interpret it to say that > > any actual action a player performs must be while Off Leave, > > and if e happens to be On Leave at the time that's assumed to > > end as soon as the action is performed. > > > > In which case, Mr. in a Spacesuit's compulsory action of > > yielding all eir points to eir fellow Athenians should have > > taken em Off Leave, at which point e'd be GCed three nweeks > > later instead. > > R205 states that a player comes Off Leave when e takes an action. It > also states that e cannot take actions. Therefore, e cannot come Off > Leave. Your logic requires that posting an action to a public forum > causes you to take that action; this is not true if the action is one > forbidden to you by the rules, and for a player On Leave all actions > are forbidden. > > I believe that Mr. in a Spacesuit's destruction and the subsequent > reclamation of eir possessions by Athena's Society was illegal; it only > happened because of the Statute of Limitations. Okay...when is an action/event a SoL-sanctioned freak occurrence, and when is it a sufficiently frequent occurrence as to become game tradition and de facto rule? Had no one before now come off leave, one could reasonably argue that r205 is a trap that doesn't allow them to do so, but there have been many instances -- at least one by almost every player -- of a player going on leave and coming off leave again. Enough, in my mind, to set a precedent. I submit that this precedent indicates the proper interpretation of r205 is that it is impossible to take an action and remain on leave -- that the act of taking an action causes one to become off leave. I submit that the purpose and usefulness of such a rule is not to prevent action, but in fact to prevent action being performed under a safety net of being on leave. Now, if you want a hole to patch, you might want to look at Lurking. A player who is Lurking is not restricted from performing any action, but cannot be GCed. Glotmorf ----- The Ivory Mini-Tower: a blog study in Social Technology. http://ix.1sound.com/ivoryminitower From bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org Thu Dec 18 05:12:55 2003 From: bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 00:12:55 -0500 Subject: [Bnomic-private] Re: State of Emergency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wednesday, December 17, 2003, at 11:55 PM, SkArcher wrote: > On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 23:19:37 -0500, Daniel Lepage > wrote: > >> >> On Wednesday, December 17, 2003, at 11:10 PM, Glotmorf wrote: >> >>> On 17 Dec 2003 at 22:08, Daniel Lepage wrote: >>> >>>> Athena's Society does not have the power to enforce its Tontine >>>> regulations - a player on the verge of Garbage Collection must be On >>>> Leave, and On Leave players may not take actions. Which is probably >>>> not >>>> a good thing, as coming On Leave is an action. >>> >>> Interestingly, Athena's Society's charter was considered to >>> have had the power to enforce its Tontine on Orc in a >>> Spacesuit; eir points got transferred to the remaining members >>> just before e got GCed, and that was sufficiently long ago >>> that it's now a legal action. >>> >>> Interestingly, r205, in the most recent form I have on file >>> (205/5), says a player comes Off Leave when e performs an >>> action. It then goes on to say that while a player is On >>> Leave, e cannot perform actions. If we were to look at the >>> combination of these two, one might interpret it to say that >>> any actual action a player performs must be while Off Leave, >>> and if e happens to be On Leave at the time that's assumed to >>> end as soon as the action is performed. >>> >>> In which case, Mr. in a Spacesuit's compulsory action of >>> yielding all eir points to eir fellow Athenians should have >>> taken em Off Leave, at which point e'd be GCed three nweeks >>> later instead. >> >> R205 states that a player comes Off Leave when e takes an action. It >> also states that e cannot take actions. Therefore, e cannot come Off >> Leave. Your logic requires that posting an action to a public forum >> causes you to take that action; this is not true if the action is one >> forbidden to you by the rules, and for a player On Leave all actions >> are forbidden. >> >> I believe that Mr. in a Spacesuit's destruction and the subsequent >> reclamation of eir possessions by Athena's Society was illegal; it >> only happened because of the Statute of Limitations. >> > > the statement requiring players of Athena society surely acts with the > enforcement of the rule which states something like 'Societies have > the right to restrict or mandate players actions in ways specified in > their charter? (sorry, don't have a set of rules handy right now) > Because this would be a limitation on the players actions, that rule > permits (and indeed, enforces) their forced action of giving out all > eir points. The societies rule explicitly states that players may not be forced to perform actions they could not perform anyway. Otherwise, I could create a society and have it "force" me to take all the points from the Gremlin Fund, or something along those lines. -- Wonko From bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org Thu Dec 18 05:17:56 2003 From: bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org (SkArcher) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 05:17:56 -0000 Subject: [Bnomic-private] Re: State of Emergency In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 00:12:55 -0500, Daniel Lepage wrote: > > On Wednesday, December 17, 2003, at 11:55 PM, SkArcher wrote: > >> On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 23:19:37 -0500, Daniel Lepage >> wrote: >> >>> >>> On Wednesday, December 17, 2003, at 11:10 PM, Glotmorf wrote: >>> >>>> On 17 Dec 2003 at 22:08, Daniel Lepage wrote: >>>> >>>>> Athena's Society does not have the power to enforce its Tontine >>>>> regulations - a player on the verge of Garbage Collection must be On >>>>> Leave, and On Leave players may not take actions. Which is probably >>>>> not >>>>> a good thing, as coming On Leave is an action. >>>> >>>> Interestingly, Athena's Society's charter was considered to >>>> have had the power to enforce its Tontine on Orc in a >>>> Spacesuit; eir points got transferred to the remaining members >>>> just before e got GCed, and that was sufficiently long ago >>>> that it's now a legal action. >>>> >>>> Interestingly, r205, in the most recent form I have on file >>>> (205/5), says a player comes Off Leave when e performs an >>>> action. It then goes on to say that while a player is On >>>> Leave, e cannot perform actions. If we were to look at the >>>> combination of these two, one might interpret it to say that >>>> any actual action a player performs must be while Off Leave, >>>> and if e happens to be On Leave at the time that's assumed to >>>> end as soon as the action is performed. >>>> >>>> In which case, Mr. in a Spacesuit's compulsory action of >>>> yielding all eir points to eir fellow Athenians should have >>>> taken em Off Leave, at which point e'd be GCed three nweeks >>>> later instead. >>> >>> R205 states that a player comes Off Leave when e takes an action. It >>> also states that e cannot take actions. Therefore, e cannot come Off >>> Leave. Your logic requires that posting an action to a public forum >>> causes you to take that action; this is not true if the action is one >>> forbidden to you by the rules, and for a player On Leave all actions >>> are forbidden. >>> >>> I believe that Mr. in a Spacesuit's destruction and the subsequent >>> reclamation of eir possessions by Athena's Society was illegal; it >>> only happened because of the Statute of Limitations. >>> >> >> the statement requiring players of Athena society surely acts with the >> enforcement of the rule which states something like 'Societies have the >> right to restrict or mandate players actions in ways specified in their >> charter? (sorry, don't have a set of rules handy right now) Because >> this would be a limitation on the players actions, that rule permits >> (and indeed, enforces) their forced action of giving out all eir points. > > The societies rule explicitly states that players may not be forced to > perform actions they could not perform anyway. Otherwise, I could create > a society and have it "force" me to take all the points from the Gremlin > Fund, or something along those lines. > Taking points from the Gremlin fund is not allowed under the rules. Giving points away is allowed under the rules. I concur with Glotmorf on his analysis of prevailing interpretation of the On Leave/Off Leave dilemma. It needs better wording, but... -- From bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org Thu Dec 18 05:21:38 2003 From: bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 00:21:38 -0500 Subject: [Bnomic-private] Re: State of Emergency In-Reply-To: <3FE0EECC.12383.4825E1@localhost> Message-ID: <0E130E0C-311A-11D8-8DCA-000A95842464@cornell.edu> On Thursday, December 18, 2003, at 12:03 AM, Glotmorf wrote: > Okay...when is an action/event a SoL-sanctioned freak > occurrence, and when is it a sufficiently frequent occurrence > as to become game tradition and de facto rule? I believe that a precedent can never override the wording of the rules; if we have a hundred past instances where we assumed a rule behaved in a certain manner, and then reread it and discover that it does not, then that rule does not behave in that manner, even though we have treated it that way before. Precedent contradicting a rule's wording does not show that the rule doesn't follow its wording, it just shows that we're ignorant of what the rule actually says. > Had no one > before now come off leave, one could reasonably argue that > r205 is a trap that doesn't allow them to do so, but there > have been many instances -- at least one by almost every > player -- of a player going on leave and coming off leave > again. Enough, in my mind, to set a precedent. I believe that at the moment, r205 is such a trap. All players who convinced Dave to state that they came Off Leave were taken off leave by the SoL; this does not mean that future players should be able to escape r205. > I submit that this precedent indicates the proper > interpretation of r205 is that it is impossible to take an > action and remain on leave -- that the act of taking an action > causes one to become off leave. I submit that the purpose and > usefulness of such a rule is not to prevent action, but in > fact to prevent action being performed under a safety net of > being on leave. I agree that the act of taking an action causes one to become Off Leave. However, a player who is On Leave cannot perform the act of taking an action, so it's a moot point whether or not doing so would cause them to return from leave. > Now, if you want a hole to patch, you might want to look at > Lurking. A player who is Lurking is not restricted from > performing any action, but cannot be GCed. How is that a hole? The only advantage to Lurking is that you can't be GCed; unlike being On Leave, it doesn't protect you from random selections, nor forbid you from taking actions. It simply states that you can plan an absence, and delay GCage since you intend to return. Presumably, if you're taking those actions that you aren't restricted from performing, you're not a candidate for GCage either. -- Wonko Award Wonko a Win. -----[[BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK]}----- Version: 3.1 GU/O d-(++)(?) s+:+ a--->+++ C++>++++>$ UB+>++++ P--@ L+>+++ E>++ W++(+++) N+{((++]]}}) o?>++++ K? w------- O? M++ V- PS@ PE-@ Y-- PGP- t+ 5 X R+ tv--@ b+++@ DI++++ D G++ e*>++++ !h r++ y? ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------