From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sat Dec 13 16:31:24 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (SkArcher) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 16:31:24 -0000 Subject: [BNomic-Public] test Message-ID: i know no-one will ignore this, but try, okay? -- SkArcher From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Dec 14 16:43:09 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:43:09 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Checking in Message-ID: <99C643CA-2E54-11D8-BCFC-000A95842464@cornell.edu> I'm subscribed, and it seems to be working. -- Wonko From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Dec 14 12:06:47 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (=?iso-8859-1?q?Bill=20Adlam?=) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 12:06:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [BNomic-Public] Re: State of Emergency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031214120647.29532.qmail@web40302.mail.yahoo.com> For what it's worth, I too recognise a State of Emergency. Wonko proposed: > > I propose that we simply use emails sent to all players as the > forum; I > > volunteer to be the emergency admin. Why not bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (or bnomic-private)? Apologies to all who get this twice, which is probably everyone. Sagitta ________________________________________________________________________ BT Yahoo! Broadband - Save £80 when you order online today. Hurry! Offer ends 21st December 2003. The way the internet was meant to be. http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=21064/*http://btyahoo.yahoo.co.uk From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Dec 14 12:58:26 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (SkArcher) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 12:58:26 -0000 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Re: State of Emergency In-Reply-To: <20031214120647.29532.qmail@web40302.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20031214120647.29532.qmail@web40302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 12:06:47 +0000 (GMT), Bill Adlam wrote: > For what it's worth, I too recognise a State of Emergency. > > Wonko proposed: > >> > I propose that we simply use emails sent to all players as the >> forum; I >> > volunteer to be the emergency admin. > > Why not bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (or bnomic-private)? > > Apologies to all who get this twice, which is probably everyone. > > Sagitta > I only got this once, according to the mail headers as a direct mail to me, not from the other mailing list. This should explain why using a simple direct mail is the best idea SkArcher From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Dec 14 14:24:45 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Craig) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 09:24:45 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] RE: State of Emergency In-Reply-To: <20031214120647.29532.qmail@web40302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >Apologies to all who get this twice, which is probably everyone. I only got it once. From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Dec 14 16:27:43 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:27:43 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Re: State of Emergency In-Reply-To: <20031214120647.29532.qmail@web40302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <71533224-2E52-11D8-BCFC-000A95842464@cornell.edu> On Sunday, December 14, 2003, at 07:06 AM, Bill Adlam wrote: > For what it's worth, I too recognise a State of Emergency. > > Wonko proposed: > >>> I propose that we simply use emails sent to all players as the >> forum; I >>> volunteer to be the emergency admin. > > Why not bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (or bnomic-private)? > > Apologies to all who get this twice, which is probably everyone. My current email address has changed since the last time we had an emergency, and this address is no longer subscribed. I have just subscribed now, and checked the archives; there is a test message from SkArcher, but your message didn't go through. I suspect the list automatically rejects all non-subscribers. I, BvS, bd, Glotmorf, Iain, Sagitta, and SkArcher are currently subscribed to the list; everyone else can subscribe at . Additionally, our use of this list will send messages to the following ex-players: Wild Card, Naath, The Voice, Orc in a Spacesuit, Squire of Dimness, and Athena. I wonder if any of them will be motivated to rejoin... -- Wonko From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Dec 14 16:31:15 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (SkArcher) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 16:31:15 -0000 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Re: State of Emergency In-Reply-To: <71533224-2E52-11D8-BCFC-000A95842464@cornell.edu> References: <71533224-2E52-11D8-BCFC-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:27:43 -0500, Daniel Lepage wrote: > I, BvS, bd, Glotmorf, Iain, Sagitta, and SkArcher are currently > subscribed to the list; everyone else can subscribe at > . > > Additionally, our use of this list will send messages to the following > ex-players: > Wild Card, Naath, The Voice, Orc in a Spacesuit, Squire of Dimness, and > Athena. > > I wonder if any of them will be motivated to rejoin... > I suspect that most, if not all, will have unsubscribed from the list due to the monthly reminders of its presence. You never know though. So, now we are officially in an SoE, does anyone have any thoughts on refresh props? SkArcher -- From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Dec 14 21:19:02 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (=?iso-8859-1?q?Bill=20Adlam?=) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 21:19:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [BNomic-Public] Re: State of Emergency In-Reply-To: <80CEA8D7-2E54-11D8-BCFC-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <20031214211902.67523.qmail@web40304.mail.yahoo.com> Wonko wrote *buzz*: > 1. hosting - does anyone know how long nomic.net will be down, or > know > a good way to contact joel without it? If not, does anyone know > anywhere else we could host the game? Another issue is *buzz* whether Dave (or anyone else) has an up-to-*buzz*-date gamestate, or can get one, or can regenerate it. > 2. wins - I suspect that by the time this Emergency is over, Rob, > Glotmorf, and I will all have turned two, and under the current > ruleset, that entitles us all to win. The rules don't discuss what > happens with multiple simultaneous wins; it's conceivable that the > clock should remain off for a full nweek, which would probably be > bad. I think the upstanding *crackle* citizen requirement takes precedence over the seniority rule, so you will have to regain some dimensions before you can win. The upstanding rule doesn't seem to be in the preserved ruleset, so I can't be sure. However, we do know that *buzz* Iain won, and thus the circuit breaker is in *crackle* effect. > 3. general disorder - there are definitely things in the rules that > are > not well worded to work with other changes that were later added. As > SkArcher suggested, we could use the Emergency as an excuse to repair > some of the less elegant portions of the ruleset. Also, it might be > nice to do something about all the societies and objects that may or > may not exist, but are still listed on the roster and societies > pages. All of this can be dealt with in normal play. *buzz* Let's not abuse the SOE to make sweeping changes that have nothing to do with the current *crackle* crisis. > Anyone have any concrete thoughts? Sand, cement, gravel ... mmmmmm. Sagitta ________________________________________________________________________ BT Yahoo! Broadband - Save £80 when you order online today. Hurry! Offer ends 21st December 2003. The way the internet was meant to be. http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=21064/*http://btyahoo.yahoo.co.uk From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Dec 14 22:07:51 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Baron von Skippy) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:07:51 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Try this again... Message-ID: -Apparently, I can't send messages to bnomic-private. Is it working?- [[BvS]] Wonko wrote *buzz*: -You know, you don't have to do that on private forums, especially not right now.- >3. general disorder - there are definitely things in the rules that are not >well worded to work with other changes that were later added. As SkArcher >suggested, we could use the Emergency as an excuse to repair some of the >less elegant portions of the ruleset. Also, it might be nice to do >something about all the societies and objects that may or may not exist, >but are still listed on the roster and societies pages. All of this can be dealt with in normal play. *buzz* Let's not abuse the SOE to make sweeping changes that have nothing to do with the current *crackle* crisis. -Why not? This way, the changers don't get any reward for it. It's totally philanthropic of them. I'm in favor of that idea.- >Anyone have any concrete thoughts? Sand, cement, gravel ... mmmmmm. _________________________________________________________________ Tired of slow downloads and busy signals? Get a high-speed Internet connection! Comparison-shop your local high-speed providers here. https://broadband.msn.com From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Dec 14 22:13:05 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Zarpint Jeremy Cook) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:13:05 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] return In-Reply-To: References: <71533224-2E52-11D8-BCFC-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Message-ID: Sure, why not... I'll have to wait till nomic.net's back to do anything, and I doubt this takes effect during an SOE, but... I join the Nomic game as the player "Zarpint the Incomplete". I'll do it again if necessary when normality(?) resumes. When the site's back, I'll join the other list, and see how much more confusing the rules became. --Zarpint (formerly Athena) On Sun, 14 Dec 2003, SkArcher wrote: > > I wonder if any of them will be motivated to rejoin... > > I suspect that most, if not all, will have unsubscribed from the list due > to the monthly reminders of its presence. You never know though. Well, definitely not all. It's actually more trouble to unsubscribe than to delete two emails a month. (First Cardinal Virtue of a programmer). -- Zarpint "All thy toiling only breeds new dreams, new dreams; Jeremy Cook there is no truth saving in thine own heart." mcfoufou@umich.edu --W.B. Yeats, The Song of the Happy Shepherd grep -r kibo / "Movements are the problem, not the answer to problems." From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Dec 14 21:57:16 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Baron von Skippy) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 16:57:16 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Re: State of Emergency Message-ID: >My current email address has changed since the last time we had an >emergency, and this address is no longer subscribed. I have just subscribed >now, and checked the archives; there is a test message from SkArcher, but >your message didn't go through. I suspect the list automatically rejects >all non-subscribers. > >I, BvS, bd, Glotmorf, Iain, Sagitta, and SkArcher are currently subscribed >to the list; everyone else can subscribe at >. > >Additionally, our use of this list will send messages to the following >ex-players: >Wild Card, Naath, The Voice, Orc in a Spacesuit, Squire of Dimness, and >Athena. > >I wonder if any of them will be motivated to rejoin... > -Well, Orc and Athena may be drawn by the chaos inherent in the system, Voice doesn't like dealing with the game going wahooni-shaped, and I don't know about Naath or Squire.- [[BvS]] _________________________________________________________________ Cell phone ‘switch’ rules are taking effect — find out more here. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/consumeradvocate.armx From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Dec 14 22:28:19 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (SkArcher) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 22:28:19 -0000 Subject: [BNomic-Public] return In-Reply-To: References: <71533224-2E52-11D8-BCFC-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:13:05 -0500, Zarpint Jeremy Cook wrote: > Sure, why not... I'll have to wait till nomic.net's back to do anything, > and I doubt this takes effect during an SOE, but... I don't think there is anything stopping you from joining while an SoE is in effect, but i can't say for sure. I joined after you left, but Welcome back anyhow :) > > I join the Nomic game as the player "Zarpint the Incomplete". > If you joined as Athena you might regain control of Athena's Society from Glotmorf, who scammed it when you disappeared > I'll do it again if necessary when normality(?) resumes. ? > > When the site's back, I'll join the other list, and see how much more > confusing > the rules became. > Much. No Grid any more though, Wonko nuked the hell out of it. SkArcher -- From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Dec 14 22:33:45 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (SkArcher) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 22:33:45 -0000 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Re: State of Emergency In-Reply-To: <20031214211902.67523.qmail@web40304.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20031214211902.67523.qmail@web40304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 21:19:02 +0000 (GMT), Bill Adlam wrote: > Wonko wrote *buzz*: > >> 1. hosting - does anyone know how long nomic.net will be down, or >> know >> a good way to contact joel without it? If not, does anyone know >> anywhere else we could host the game? > > Another issue is *buzz* whether Dave (or anyone else) has an > up-to-*buzz*-date gamestate, or can get one, or can regenerate it. > its possible I could get access to a host, but not too likely and it would be a pain as I wouldn't have direct access to the server to do updates. >> 2. wins - I suspect that by the time this Emergency is over, Rob, >> Glotmorf, and I will all have turned two, and under the current >> ruleset, that entitles us all to win. The rules don't discuss what >> happens with multiple simultaneous wins; it's conceivable that the >> clock should remain off for a full nweek, which would probably be >> bad. > > I think the upstanding *crackle* citizen requirement takes precedence > over the seniority rule, so you will have to regain some dimensions > before you can win. The upstanding rule doesn't seem to be in the > preserved ruleset, so I can't be sure. However, we do know that *buzz* > Iain won, and thus the circuit breaker is in *crackle* effect. > nitpick: The clock cannot be turned off for any length of time defined in nweeks, as if the clock is turned off, no ntime passes. If there is a statement to this effect in the rules, we may want to get rid of that loophole sharpish >> 3. general disorder - there are definitely things in the rules that >> are >> not well worded to work with other changes that were later added. As >> SkArcher suggested, we could use the Emergency as an excuse to repair >> some of the less elegant portions of the ruleset. Also, it might be >> nice to do something about all the societies and objects that may or >> may not exist, but are still listed on the roster and societies >> pages. > > All of this can be dealt with in normal play. *buzz* Let's not abuse > the SOE to make sweeping changes that have nothing to do with the > current *crackle* crisis. Yes, it _can_, but it never _is_, is it? You are new, belive me you'll never get all of the bugs out of the ruleset during normal play > >> Anyone have any concrete thoughts? > > Sand, cement, gravel ... mmmmmm. > *drum roll* SkArcher From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Dec 14 22:34:32 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (SkArcher) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 22:34:32 -0000 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Re: State of Emergency In-Reply-To: <20031214120647.29532.qmail@web40302.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20031214120647.29532.qmail@web40302.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 21:19:02 +0000 (GMT), Bill Adlam wrote: > Wonko wrote *buzz*: > >> 1. hosting - does anyone know how long nomic.net will be down, or >> know >> a good way to contact joel without it? If not, does anyone know >> anywhere else we could host the game? > > Another issue is *buzz* whether Dave (or anyone else) has an > up-to-*buzz*-date gamestate, or can get one, or can regenerate it. > its possible I could get access to a host, but not too likely and it would be a pain as I wouldn't have direct access to the server to do updates. >> 2. wins - I suspect that by the time this Emergency is over, Rob, >> Glotmorf, and I will all have turned two, and under the current >> ruleset, that entitles us all to win. The rules don't discuss what >> happens with multiple simultaneous wins; it's conceivable that the >> clock should remain off for a full nweek, which would probably be >> bad. > > I think the upstanding *crackle* citizen requirement takes precedence > over the seniority rule, so you will have to regain some dimensions > before you can win. The upstanding rule doesn't seem to be in the > preserved ruleset, so I can't be sure. However, we do know that *buzz* > Iain won, and thus the circuit breaker is in *crackle* effect. > nitpick: The clock cannot be turned off for any length of time defined in nweeks, as if the clock is turned off, no ntime passes. If there is a statement to this effect in the rules, we may want to get rid of that loophole sharpish >> 3. general disorder - there are definitely things in the rules that >> are >> not well worded to work with other changes that were later added. As >> SkArcher suggested, we could use the Emergency as an excuse to repair >> some of the less elegant portions of the ruleset. Also, it might be >> nice to do something about all the societies and objects that may or >> may not exist, but are still listed on the roster and societies >> pages. > > All of this can be dealt with in normal play. *buzz* Let's not abuse > the SOE to make sweeping changes that have nothing to do with the > current *crackle* crisis. Yes, it _can_, but it never _is_, is it? You are new, belive me you'll never get all of the bugs out of the ruleset during normal play > >> Anyone have any concrete thoughts? > > Sand, cement, gravel ... mmmmmm. > *drum roll* SkArcher -- From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Mon Dec 15 01:47:54 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 20:47:54 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Re: State of Emergency In-Reply-To: <20031214211902.67523.qmail@web40304.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sunday, December 14, 2003, at 04:19 PM, Bill Adlam wrote: > Wonko wrote *buzz*: > >> 1. hosting - does anyone know how long nomic.net will be down, or >> know >> a good way to contact joel without it? If not, does anyone know >> anywhere else we could host the game? > > Another issue is *buzz* whether Dave (or anyone else) has an > up-to-*buzz*-date gamestate, or can get one, or can regenerate it. IIRC, Dave keeps one that is up to date. So far, we haven't heard from Dave, however. There's also the question of administration, if we can't find Dave - I can do what's needed to get through the emergency, but I have neither the time nor the skill necessary to keep the full game going. >> 2. wins - I suspect that by the time this Emergency is over, Rob, >> Glotmorf, and I will all have turned two, and under the current >> ruleset, that entitles us all to win. The rules don't discuss what >> happens with multiple simultaneous wins; it's conceivable that the >> clock should remain off for a full nweek, which would probably be >> bad. > > I think the upstanding *crackle* citizen requirement takes precedence > over the seniority rule, so you will have to regain some dimensions > before you can win. The upstanding rule doesn't seem to be in the > preserved ruleset, so I can't be sure. However, we do know that *buzz* > Iain won, and thus the circuit breaker is in *crackle* effect. Well, I at least should obtain positive Charm and Activity as of the end of this nweek, and I already have positive respect; I believe the same is true of both Rob and Glotmorf. >> 3. general disorder - there are definitely things in the rules that >> are >> not well worded to work with other changes that were later added. As >> SkArcher suggested, we could use the Emergency as an excuse to repair >> some of the less elegant portions of the ruleset. Also, it might be >> nice to do something about all the societies and objects that may or >> may not exist, but are still listed on the roster and societies >> pages. > > All of this can be dealt with in normal play. *buzz* Let's not abuse > the SOE to make sweeping changes that have nothing to do with the > current *crackle* crisis. The reason I advocate game repairs is that I suspect that some portions of the ruleset are emergencies waiting to happen - I suspect that there are some things we take for granted that don't work properly, and I'd rather catch them and clean them up now while they're not in effect than wait until somebody finds them and have another emergency. Also, I'd like to note that emergency or not, we're still playing a game; the emergency management system is just another facet of the game, and I see no reason why we shouldn't use it to do things just as we would any other part of the game. -- Wonko P.S. I find myself strangely compelled to mention SkArcher's first test message to bnomic-public; for some reason it is unignorable. From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Mon Dec 15 03:18:03 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Glotmorf) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 22:18:03 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] return In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3FDCE19B.23035.FE094@localhost> On 14 Dec 2003 at 22:28, SkArcher wrote: > On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:13:05 -0500, Zarpint Jeremy Cook > wrote: > > > I join the Nomic game as the player "Zarpint the Incomplete". > > > > If you joined as Athena you might regain control of Athena's Society from > Glotmorf, who scammed it when you disappeared No, sorry, won't work. I changed the charter. (Though of course the collection of charters isn't part of my archives...:P) Glotmorf ----- The Ivory Mini-Tower: a blog study in Social Technology. http://ix.1sound.com/ivoryminitower From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Mon Dec 15 05:24:19 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (David E. Smith) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 23:24:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: [BNomic-Public] Re: B Nomic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Dec 2003, Daniel Lepage wrote: > I don't know if you've been getting all the emergency news, but B > Nomic has declared a state of emergency, due to nomic.net's continued > absence. Do you have any idea what's happened to nomic.net, or when it > might be back up? Hm. I'll try to get in touch with Joel. Basically, Joel's DSL modem crapped out, and as nomic.net and its associated sites are all hosted at his home, they'll be offline 'til the phone company fixes it. I think an SOE is a bit over-the-top, personally, but what do I know? :) dave From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Mon Dec 15 17:32:40 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:32:40 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Fwd: ellipsis.cx Message-ID: Ladies and Gentlemen of B Nomic, I managed to get ahold of Joel. He says: > Anyway, my DSL modem/router died on Thursday morning, and the telco > wanted to charge me $378 (!) for a new one. Instead, I found one on > ebay yesterday, and it's already on its way. I should have it tomorrow > or Wednesday, at which point things will come back up. > > When that happens, I want to collect addresses for everyone who wants > to be notified when things are down, so I can do that next time > something unexpected happens. Also, I'm presently considering having a > spare server at a remote location that will take over all mail > functionality if charybdis goes down. This means that the game will be able to function again starting in the next few days. Thus, the emergency is no longer strictly necessary. However, I don't think we have any way of reversing the process to come off of an emergency short of finishing the Process. Since there is no longer any real need to fix things via emergency, I suggest that we use this as a time to consider the rules and fix the various things that don't work so well. I'd like to come back from this emergency with at the very least a cleaner gamestate - a lot of things are currently unknown to us, like the existence of some societies, or the amount of BNS I have (it accumulates each nweek, but we haven't heard of it in a while). I intend to craft a "Refresh" prop to clean things up a bit. I also think we should assume that the forum and admin have selected, and start gathering refresh props right now, so everything gets advanced a day. If nobody objects before midnight UTC, I say we do that, so that the pause turns on just before midnight and immediately advances a day. -- Wonko From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Mon Dec 15 17:45:06 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Baron von Skippy) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 12:45:06 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Fwd: ellipsis.cx Message-ID: >Ladies and Gentlemen of B Nomic, > I managed to get ahold of Joel. He says: > > >>Anyway, my DSL modem/router died on Thursday morning, and the telco wanted >>to charge me $378 (!) for a new one. Instead, I found one on ebay >>yesterday, and it's already on its way. I should have it tomorrow or >>Wednesday, at which point things will come back up. >> >>When that happens, I want to collect addresses for everyone who wants to >>be notified when things are down, so I can do that next time something >>unexpected happens. Also, I'm presently considering having a spare server >>at a remote location that will take over all mail functionality if >>charybdis goes down. > >This means that the game will be able to function again starting in the >next few days. > >Thus, the emergency is no longer strictly necessary. -Oops.- > >However, I don't think we have any way of reversing the process to come off >of an emergency short of finishing the Process. >Since there is no longer any real need to fix things via emergency, I >suggest that we use this as a time to consider the rules and fix the >various things that don't work so well. -Sounds good. I suggest a second LiM revolution - the rules are in desperate need of a good defragmenting to clear up some issues of precedence, and there are a lot of scraps of old ideas still scattered throughout. Major concepts do seem to put down a lot of roots in this game, don't they?- > >I'd like to come back from this emergency with at the very least a cleaner >gamestate - a lot of things are currently unknown to us, like the existence >of some societies, or the amount of BNS I have (it accumulates each nweek, >but we haven't heard of it in a while). -Yeah... okay, I'll take a look and see how long that's been - I may be able to get the Bank up and running again by poking through the archives. Shouldn't be too hard to find all the things that changed people's charm in the last 15 nweeks or so. I can't get started on that for a week, though, so don't expect anything before the 23rd at the earliest. In the interim, someone come up with something to do with BNS. We're going to have about three people with more than 10,000 of the things, and another large group of 5-9,000, and there is nothing to spend the stuff on.- > >I intend to craft a "Refresh" prop to clean things up a bit. > >I also think we should assume that the forum and admin have selected, and >start gathering refresh props right now, so everything gets advanced a day. >If nobody objects before midnight UTC, I say we do that, so that the pause >turns on just before midnight and immediately advances a day. > -M'kay.- [[BvS]] _________________________________________________________________ Wonder if the latest virus has gotten to your computer? Find out. Run the FREE McAfee online computer scan! http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Mon Dec 15 19:14:57 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Glotmorf) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 14:14:57 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Fwd: ellipsis.cx In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3FDDC1E1.4763.18139FC@localhost> On 15 Dec 2003 at 12:32, Daniel Lepage wrote: > Ladies and Gentlemen of B Nomic, > I managed to get ahold of Joel. He says: I don't suppose he could email you/us copies of the roster, the rules, the society list, etc...? > However, I don't think we have any way of reversing the process to come > off of an emergency short of finishing the Process. > Since there is no longer any real need to fix things via emergency, I > suggest that we use this as a time to consider the rules and fix the > various things that don't work so well. > > I'd like to come back from this emergency with at the very least a > cleaner gamestate - a lot of things are currently unknown to us, like > the existence of some societies, or the amount of BNS I have (it > accumulates each nweek, but we haven't heard of it in a while). > > I intend to craft a "Refresh" prop to clean things up a bit. See above. Before we start changing things on an emergency basis, would it not be desirable to know how things currently are? Glotmorf ----- The Ivory Mini-Tower: a blog study in Social Technology. http://ix.1sound.com/ivoryminitower From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Mon Dec 15 19:33:10 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 14:33:10 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Metarules In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <843D2C64-2F35-11D8-A967-000A95842464@cornell.edu> On Monday, December 15, 2003, at 12:45 PM, Baron von Skippy wrote: >> However, I don't think we have any way of reversing the process to >> come off of an emergency short of finishing the Process. >> Since there is no longer any real need to fix things via emergency, I >> suggest that we use this as a time to consider the rules and fix the >> various things that don't work so well. > > -Sounds good. I suggest a second LiM revolution - the rules are in > desperate need of a good defragmenting to clear up some issues of > precedence, and there are a lot of scraps of old ideas still scattered > throughout. Major concepts do seem to put down a lot of roots in this > game, don't they?- I don't really like the Less is More idea; the size of the grid rule really irritated me. I do realize that this is a reversal of a position I once took on this, since I think I was partially responsible for the obscene size of that rule, but looking at it now, I think that too many things interact with each other to justify putting every rule into one big rule - for example, Hands on the Grid belonged in the Grid rule, but also in the voting rule. What might make things look better, though, is using RuleBooks. We can gather the rules that you would want to put into a single massive rule, and put them all into Rulebooks for that rule instead. Until nomic.net comes back, we can't look at the full ruleset, but I suspect almost all the rules can be conglomerated into a couple rulebooks. >> I'd like to come back from this emergency with at the very least a >> cleaner gamestate - a lot of things are currently unknown to us, like >> the existence of some societies, or the amount of BNS I have (it >> accumulates each nweek, but we haven't heard of it in a while). > > -Yeah... okay, I'll take a look and see how long that's been - I may > be able to get the Bank up and running again by poking through the > archives. Shouldn't be too hard to find all the things that changed > people's charm in the last 15 nweeks or so. I can't get started on > that for a week, though, so don't expect anything before the 23rd at > the earliest. In the interim, someone come up with something to do > with BNS. We're going to have about three people with more than 10,000 > of the things, and another large group of 5-9,000, and there is > nothing to spend the stuff on.- Lots of things modify Charm - proposal passage/failure does it, a couple poetic forms do, as does the creation of a new form using the form created... some drinks alter it too, as do Wins... Overall, it might be a lot easier just to say "give all BNS to the bank, then give 4000 BNS to each player". -- Wonko P.S. I've emailed Dave and Joel to request copies of the current rules, societies, and Roster, so I may have that soon. If not, they'll probably be online within a day or two anyway. From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Mon Dec 15 19:46:58 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Baron von Skippy) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 14:46:58 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Metarules Message-ID: >>>However, I don't think we have any way of reversing the process to come >>>off of an emergency short of finishing the Process. >>>Since there is no longer any real need to fix things via emergency, I >>>suggest that we use this as a time to consider the rules and fix the >>>various things that don't work so well. >> >>-Sounds good. I suggest a second LiM revolution - the rules are in >>desperate need of a good defragmenting to clear up some issues of >>precedence, and there are a lot of scraps of old ideas still scattered >>throughout. Major concepts do seem to put down a lot of roots in this >>game, don't they?- > >I don't really like the Less is More idea; the size of the grid rule really >irritated me. I do realize that this is a reversal of a position I once >took on this, since I think I was partially responsible for the obscene >size of that rule, but looking at it now, I think that too many things >interact with each other to justify putting every rule into one big rule - >for example, Hands on the Grid belonged in the Grid rule, but also in the >voting rule. > >What might make things look better, though, is using RuleBooks. We can >gather the rules that you would want to put into a single massive rule, and >put them all into Rulebooks for that rule instead. > >Until nomic.net comes back, we can't look at the full ruleset, but I >suspect almost all the rules can be conglomerated into a couple rulebooks. -The specific method doesn't matter to me, what matters is that rules are far too scattered from similar rules, and this needs to be reversed. If that's by the formation of a bunch of rulebooks, that works too, as long as the ruleset is consolidated.- > >>>I'd like to come back from this emergency with at the very least a >>>cleaner gamestate - a lot of things are currently unknown to us, like the >>>existence of some societies, or the amount of BNS I have (it accumulates >>>each nweek, but we haven't heard of it in a while). >> >>-Yeah... okay, I'll take a look and see how long that's been - I may be >>able to get the Bank up and running again by poking through the archives. >>Shouldn't be too hard to find all the things that changed people's charm >>in the last 15 nweeks or so. I can't get started on that for a week, >>though, so don't expect anything before the 23rd at the earliest. In the >>interim, someone come up with something to do with BNS. We're going to >>have about three people with more than 10,000 of the things, and another >>large group of 5-9,000, and there is nothing to spend the stuff on.- > >Lots of things modify Charm - proposal passage/failure does it, a couple >poetic forms do, as does the creation of a new form using the form >created... some drinks alter it too, as do Wins... Overall, it might be a >lot easier just to say "give all BNS to the bank, then give 4000 BNS to >each player". > -Prop pass/fail, literary forms, and creations of forms are all recorded in ballot result recognizers. Drinks are in normal recognizers, and Wins are easy enough to find. While what you describe would be easier, it would also be far less exact, and I'm saying that I'm willing to go to the effort of tracking all of this. Why argue with that?- [[BvS]] _________________________________________________________________ Cell phone ‘switch’ rules are taking effect — find out more here. http://special.msn.com/msnbc/consumeradvocate.armx From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Mon Dec 15 19:53:36 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Zarpint Jeremy Cook) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 14:53:36 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] ideas... In-Reply-To: <3FDCE19B.23035.FE094@localhost> References: <3FDCE19B.23035.FE094@localhost> Message-ID: Glotmorf, you dirty rat! I smear an Eclair at you! :) How did you manage to change the charter? I thought I was the only one who could do that.... What loophole did you find? And why? That society was completely worthless when I left. My philosophy in this game, though, is not to amass large amounts of stuff, but to create chaos and silliness. I change my Philosophy to "not to amass large amounts of stuff, but to create chaos and silliness". Suggestions for Refresh: (I'm not going to actually submit one, even if I can, since I haven't been through the last few nseasons) 1. Obviously we need some way of stopping an SOE without going through the full procedure. (e.g. "The Procedure may be stopped at any time during the Emergency, and the game state returned to its state at the time of the beginning of the Emergency, by a majority vote of the most recently formally recognized body of players in The Game." at the end of par. 1 in rule 0) 2. Take care of the deactivated rules. I think the Super Power MTG-esque rule is worth saving. (remove 1229; I don't know what went wrong with 1534) 3. Some way of changing official Fora in the absence of the Admin or an SOE would be nice (e.g. change 16.B, sentence 3, to "Only the Administrator may redesignate Fora unless a majority of players recognize em as absent or failing, in which case a majority of players agreeing on a redesignation of Fora may.) Zarpint the Incomplete On Sun, 14 Dec 2003, Glotmorf wrote: > On 14 Dec 2003 at 22:28, SkArcher wrote: > > > On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:13:05 -0500, Zarpint Jeremy Cook > > wrote: > > > > > I join the Nomic game as the player "Zarpint the Incomplete". > > > > > > > If you joined as Athena you might regain control of Athena's Society from > > Glotmorf, who scammed it when you disappeared > > No, sorry, won't work. I changed the charter. (Though of > course the collection of charters isn't part of my > archives...:P) > > Glotmorf > > ----- > The Ivory Mini-Tower: a blog study in Social Technology. > http://ix.1sound.com/ivoryminitower > > > _______________________________________________ > BNomic-Public mailing list > BNomic-Public@ysolde.ucam.org > http://www.ysolde.ucam.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bnomic-public > -- Zarpint "All thy toiling only breeds new dreams, new dreams; Jeremy Cook there is no truth saving in thine own heart." mcfoufou@umich.edu --W.B. Yeats, The Song of the Happy Shepherd grep -r kibo / "Movements are the problem, not the answer to problems." From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Mon Dec 15 20:13:06 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:13:06 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] ideas... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1813A262-2F3B-11D8-AE1D-000A95842464@cornell.edu> On Monday, December 15, 2003, at 02:53 PM, Zarpint Jeremy Cook wrote: > > Glotmorf, you dirty rat! I smear an Eclair at you! :) > > How did you manage to change the charter? I thought I was the only one > who could do that.... > What loophole did you find? And why? That society was completely > worthless when I left. After you left, there was a society that said "Athena can change this charter at will", or something to that effect, but there was nobody named "Athena". So Glotmorf changed eir name to Athena, altered the charter, and went back to Glotmorf. > Suggestions for Refresh: > 1. Obviously we need some way of stopping an SOE without going through > the full procedure. > (e.g. "The Procedure may be stopped at any time during the Emergency, > and the game state returned > to its state at the time of the beginning of the Emergency, by a > majority vote of the most recently > formally recognized body of players in The Game." at the end of par. 1 > in rule 0) I agree. > 2. Take care of the deactivated rules. I think the Super Power > MTG-esque rule is worth saving. > (remove 1229; I don't know what went wrong with 1534) The copy of the ruleset that I have up is about four nweeks out of date. Those rules expired already, though I would like to see Super Powers come back. > 3. Some way of changing official Fora in the absence of the Admin or > an SOE would be nice > (e.g. change 16.B, sentence 3, to "Only the Administrator may > redesignate Fora unless a majority > of players recognize em as absent or failing, in which case a majority > of players agreeing on > a redesignation of Fora may.) The absence of the admin causes a lot more problems than just fora; I can't think of any situation where Dave could go missing and we wouldn't go directly to SOE. -- Wonko From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Mon Dec 15 20:37:55 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Zarpint Jeremy Cook) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:37:55 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] ideas... In-Reply-To: <1813A262-2F3B-11D8-AE1D-000A95842464@cornell.edu> References: <1813A262-2F3B-11D8-AE1D-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, Daniel Lepage wrote: > After you left, there was a society that said "Athena can change this > charter at will", or something to that effect, but there was nobody > named "Athena". So Glotmorf changed eir name to Athena, altered the > charter, and went back to Glotmorf. "One who fights monsters shouls take care that in the process he does not become a monster." --Nietzsche > > 3. Some way of changing official Fora in the absence of the Admin or > > an SOE would be nice > > (e.g. change 16.B, sentence 3, to "Only the Administrator may > > redesignate Fora unless a majority > > of players recognize em as absent or failing, in which case a majority > > of players agreeing on > > a redesignation of Fora may.) > > The absence of the admin causes a lot more problems than just fora; I > can't think of any situation where Dave could go missing and we > wouldn't go directly to SOE. Only right now. We could have a Ministry of Backups. Its Minister would be prepared to go on Leave and take over the Admin in case of absence. I think we only need the full power of SOE for genuine contradictions. Zarpint the Incomplete -- Zarpint "All thy toiling only breeds new dreams, new dreams; Jeremy Cook there is no truth saving in thine own heart." mcfoufou@umich.edu --W.B. Yeats, The Song of the Happy Shepherd grep -r kibo / "Movements are the problem, not the answer to problems." From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Mon Dec 15 20:46:59 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (SkArcher) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 20:46:59 -0000 Subject: [BNomic-Public] ideas... In-Reply-To: References: <1813A262-2F3B-11D8-AE1D-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 15:37:55 -0500, Zarpint Jeremy Cook wrote: >> The absence of the admin causes a lot more problems than just fora; I >> can't think of any situation where Dave could go missing and we >> wouldn't go directly to SOE. > > Only right now. We could have a Ministry of Backups. Its Minister would > be prepared to go > on Leave and take over the Admin in case of absence. I think we only > need the full power of > SOE for genuine contradictions. > I would prefer to make the entire nomic work without need for administration, personally. /memutters to self, must get around to using Duties -- From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Mon Dec 15 21:14:11 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Glotmorf) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 16:14:11 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] ideas... In-Reply-To: References: <1813A262-2F3B-11D8-AE1D-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <3FDDDDD3.19452.1EE66F5@localhost> On 15 Dec 2003 at 15:37, Zarpint Jeremy Cook wrote: > On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, Daniel Lepage wrote: > > After you left, there was a society that said "Athena can change > > this charter at will", or something to that effect, but there was > > nobody named "Athena". So Glotmorf changed eir name to Athena, > > altered the charter, and went back to Glotmorf. > > "One who fights monsters shouls take care that in the process he does > not become a monster." --Nietzsche Well...I got over it... > Only right now. We could have a Ministry of Backups. Its Minister > would be prepared to go on Leave and take over the Admin in case of > absence. I think we only need the full power of SOE for genuine > contradictions. Or...perhaps just a mirror site? Glotmorf ----- The Ivory Mini-Tower: a blog study in Social Technology. http://ix.1sound.com/ivoryminitower From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Mon Dec 15 21:34:06 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Zarpint Jeremy Cook) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 16:34:06 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] ideas... In-Reply-To: References: <1813A262-2F3B-11D8-AE1D-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Message-ID: That would be really cool. We could just turn all the Admin's duties into Duties--but some of them I would like performed impartially. I would want the Refresh proposal to accomplish this. The Admin right now at least needs to: 1. assign numbers/recognize actions 2. rectify 3. collect private things and make them public when time 4. keep the Clock 5. tally votes 6. designate Fora 7. maintain public information 8. assign CFJs 9. rule on unjudged CFJs 10. decide if a prop is in Song Form, tra la. 11. diagnose comas. Some of this probably should be limited as to who can do it, depending on the situation. Hey---wasn't there once a CFJ saying something like, "No rules mean anything; only what the Admin says counts?" I don't think it was Ruled on, though. On Mon, 15 Dec 2003, SkArcher wrote: > I would prefer to make the entire nomic work without need for > administration, personally. Zarpint the Incomplete -- Zarpint "All thy toiling only breeds new dreams, new dreams; Jeremy Cook there is no truth saving in thine own heart." mcfoufou@umich.edu --W.B. Yeats, The Song of the Happy Shepherd grep -r kibo / "Movements are the problem, not the answer to problems." From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Tue Dec 16 05:06:37 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 00:06:37 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] ideas... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There have been no objections, so this is Day Two of the Process. bnomic-public is the emergency forum, I am the emergency administrator. Refresh props are now being accepted. I contacted Dave and Joel about getting game documents; Dave has the scripts to generate them from the database, but not the database, and Joel can't get them to me unless he can connect charybdis to the net, in which case we'll be able to get them from the site anyway. It is predicted that the website will be up and running by the end of... I guess it's today, now that midnight has passed, my time. Now, onto my replies: On Monday, December 15, 2003, at 04:34 PM, Zarpint Jeremy Cook wrote: > > That would be really cool. We could just turn all the Admin's duties > into Duties--but > some of them I would like performed impartially. > > I would want the Refresh proposal to accomplish this. > > The Admin right now at least needs to: > 1. assign numbers/recognize actions The assigning of proposal/rule numbers and the recognition of some actions, such as proposals and votes, could be handled automatically through web submission forms and scripts. > 2. rectify This could perhaps be done by a web script of sorts... but no amount of scripting can tell the difference between a typo fix and something that alters the meaning of the word. > 3. collect private things and make them public when time Joel has already offered the use of the escrow program for this; even without it, this is not hard to automate. > 4. keep the Clock For this, it might be possible to have a clock script that updated every day; at checkpoints, it would simply turn off, and Dave would send Checkpointly recognizers to both the PF and to the clock script, which would signal it to resume. Of course, if everything else gets automated, there won't be much need for the clock to stop at checkpoints, or even at the ends of nweeks. > 5. tally votes Easily done by a webform. > 6. designate Fora Certainly a proposal has the power to designate a forum, as does a SOE; perhaps a less powerful version of the Council of Elders could be brought back to deal with small things such as this. They could govern typo fixes, too. > 7. maintain public information Not all public information is tracked by Dave; what is tracked by em could mostly be relocated to Ministries and Duties. > 8. assign CFJs > 9. rule on unjudged CFJs Both of these could be handled by a small Ministerial Society, a more potent version of the Upper House. > 10. decide if a prop is in Song Form, tra la. This is almost never an issue; but if we want to do away with it, I would recommend tacking on a ratings system, as in Prose forms, so we can rate how closely it matches the song it's supposedly matching. > 11. diagnose comas. This, at least, I've already got drafts to deal with. Rather than making it a boring duty that has to be dealt with from time to time, I'm thinking we could use the half-dead as tools in the game of cards. Under the Baron's current proposed change to the card rules, all players would get a card each nweek, even those on Forced Leave; with Looting the Corpse, such cards could be claimed by active players. I plan on proposing a) more cards that let you somehow manipulate empty players, and b) cards to take over Garbage Collection. For example, __Living Death__ might say something like, "Choose a player who has not sent any message to the public forum in the past three nweeks. That player is put on Forced Leave." Playing this card on an effectively dead player would then make them a legal target for Looting the Corpse and other such cards; another card might remove any player from the game if that player has been on Forced Leave for two nweeks, and return eir cards to the Deck. Perhaps one card might even allow one to reincarnate a Lost Soul as a player on Forced Leave, to create new card banks... BTW, Athena, Cards are new, so you don't see them in the nweek 51 rules. They're like Actions in Dvorak, if that means anything to you. The other big difference I can remember between what I have and the real ruleset is that the system of voting and proposals has changed; it functions exactly the same, but is easier to read and to expand. For one thing, Bandwidth now comes in discrete units, "Chits of Bandwidth", and each player has 10 of them at the beginning of each nweek; a general proposal takes 2. > Some of this probably should be limited as to who can do it, depending > on the situation. > > Hey---wasn't there once a CFJ saying something like, "No rules mean > anything; only what the > Admin says counts?" I don't think it was Ruled on, though. Well, the Statute of Limitations runs along those lines... -- Wonko From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Tue Dec 16 05:17:59 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (=?iso-8859-1?q?Bill=20Adlam?=) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 05:17:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [BNomic-Public] short comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20031216051759.35670.qmail@web40311.mail.yahoo.com> Baron von Skippy wrote: > -You know, you don't have to do that on private forums, especially > not right now.- Much as I *buzz* loathe it, rule 258 says 'all posts to fora'. And SkArcher wrote: > Yes, it _can_, but it never _is_, is it? You are new, belive me you'll > never get all of the bugs out of the ruleset during normal play You'll never get them all out with a refresh prop, either, unless you repeal almost the whole ruleset. *crackle* Sagitta ________________________________________________________________________ BT Yahoo! Broadband - Save £80 when you order online today. Hurry! Offer ends 21st December 2003. The way the internet was meant to be. http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=21064/*http://btyahoo.yahoo.co.uk From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Tue Dec 16 06:00:08 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Zarpint Jeremy Cook) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 01:00:08 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] ideas... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, Daniel Lepage wrote: Computer Automation stuff: It sounds good, but it would be nice if it didn't all have to be done through the Web, but we could also vote/propose by email. Would we write all these, or would Joel or Dave? I could write some... We could make a Ministry or something where writers of working automatons get points for writing. > > > 2. rectify > > This could perhaps be done by a web script of sorts... but no amount of > scripting can tell the difference between a typo fix and something that > alters the meaning of the word. The web script could contain the four letters "DWIM" (cf. Jargon File) (i.e., a rectifying web script would be more likely to turn rules into Sushi-ese than vice versa.) clock: It would be good to have some mechanism player control over it other than by proposals. The script would work well, but we might need to stop it manually at some point in an efficient way. > > > 6. designate Fora > > Certainly a proposal has the power to designate a forum, as does a SOE; > perhaps a less powerful version of the Council of Elders could be > brought back to deal with small things such as this. They could govern > typo fixes, too. No--not if there's no forum to make a proposal in. We would need a SOE here, or else to codify a backup forum. Do we need an SOE if the only problem is that we haven't designated a forum as official? > > > 11. diagnose comas. > > This, at least, I've already got drafts to deal with. Rather than > making it a boring duty that has to be dealt with from time to time, > I'm thinking we could use the half-dead as tools in the game of cards. > Under the Baron's current proposed change to the card rules, all > players would get a card each nweek, even those on Forced Leave; with > Looting the Corpse, such cards could be claimed by active players. > I plan on proposing a) more cards that let you somehow manipulate > empty players, and b) cards to take over Garbage Collection. For > example, __Living Death__ might say something like, "Choose a player > who has not sent any message to the public forum in the past three > nweeks. That player is put on Forced Leave." Playing this card on an > effectively dead player would then make them a legal target for Looting > the Corpse and other such cards; another card might remove any player > from the game if that player has been on Forced Leave for two nweeks, > and return eir cards to the Deck. > Perhaps one card might even allow one to reincarnate a Lost Soul as a > player on Forced Leave, to create new card banks... How about a Zombify card that lets you bring a dead player back to life and control em? (I will actually propose all this once we are out of SOE) > > BTW, Athena, Cards are new, so you don't see them in the nweek 51 > rules. They're like Actions in Dvorak, if that means anything to you. > The other big difference I can remember between what I have and the > real ruleset is that the system of voting and proposals has changed; it > functions exactly the same, but is easier to read and to expand. For > one thing, Bandwidth now comes in discrete units, "Chits of Bandwidth", > and each player has 10 of them at the beginning of each nweek; a > general proposal takes 2. Oh, I like Dvorak, and also the more anarchic 1000 Blank White Cards. Thanks for the update. > > Hey---wasn't there once a CFJ saying something like, "No rules mean > > anything; only what the > > Admin says counts?" I don't think it was Ruled on, though. >Well, the Statute of Limitations runs along those lines... No, this was an actual CFJ that said that the rules at no time had any effect on the game, I think. -- Zarpint "All thy toiling only breeds new dreams, new dreams; Jeremy Cook there is no truth saving in thine own heart." mcfoufou@umich.edu --W.B. Yeats, The Song of the Happy Shepherd grep -r kibo / "Movements are the problem, not the answer to problems." From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Tue Dec 16 15:54:04 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Baron von Skippy) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 10:54:04 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] short comments Message-ID: > > -You know, you don't have to do that on private forums, especially > > not right now.- > >Much as I *buzz* loathe it, rule 258 says 'all posts to fora'. -Dear gods, it does? What happens if you don't? I mean, Wonko's been ignoring it for about six months now.- > >And SkArcher wrote: > > > Yes, it _can_, but it never _is_, is it? You are new, belive me >you'll > > never get all of the bugs out of the ruleset during normal play > >You'll never get them all out with a refresh prop, either, unless you >repeal almost the whole ruleset. *crackle* > -No, but you can get a damned good start. In normal play, people are more concerned with building new ideas than fixing the old; this is a perfect time to do the latter, because people won't vote for a Refresh Prop that creates a handful of new cards.- [[BvS]] _________________________________________________________________ Winterize your home with tips from MSN House & Home. http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Tue Dec 16 16:24:05 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 11:24:05 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] short comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <44ABB918-2FE4-11D8-AC69-000A95842464@cornell.edu> On Tuesday, December 16, 2003, at 10:54 AM, Baron von Skippy wrote: >> > -You know, you don't have to do that on private forums, especially >> > not right now.- >> >> Much as I *buzz* loathe it, rule 258 says 'all posts to fora'. > > -Dear gods, it does? What happens if you don't? I mean, Wonko's been > ignoring it for about six months now.- Nothing happens if you don't. It's a lot like the Sushi - you can break it, even in public, and the rules can't do anything about it. -- Wonko From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Tue Dec 16 16:31:01 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 11:31:01 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] ideas... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3C6B84E4-2FE5-11D8-AC69-000A95842464@cornell.edu> On Tuesday, December 16, 2003, at 01:00 AM, Zarpint Jeremy Cook wrote: > On Tue, 16 Dec 2003, Daniel Lepage wrote: > > Computer Automation stuff: > It sounds good, but it would be nice if it didn't all have to be done > through the Web, but > we could also vote/propose by email. Would we write all these, or > would Joel or Dave? > I could write some... > > We could make a Ministry or something where writers of working > automatons get points for writing. I have, half written, a script that, given an email from a player, figures out which player sent it and passes it on to a handler based on the subject line. So, for example, an email coming from dpl33@cornell.edu, wonko@charybdis.ellipsis.cx, or wonko@bnomic.org would all be treated as an email from Wonko, etc. It also supports a mild command language, allowing players to, for example, add new email addresses and whatnot. I can try to finish this by the end of the week, if it would be helpful. >>> 2. rectify >> >> This could perhaps be done by a web script of sorts... but no amount >> of >> scripting can tell the difference between a typo fix and something >> that >> alters the meaning of the word. > > The web script could contain the four letters "DWIM" (cf. Jargon File) > (i.e., a rectifying web script would be more likely to turn rules into > Sushi-ese than vice versa.) Typos could also be the responsibility of a Council of Elders; three people can make decisions much faster than the full game, and if all three have the privileges to alter the rules DB, any one of them could fix the problem. > clock: > It would be good to have some mechanism player control over it other > than by proposals. The > script would work well, but we might need to stop it manually at some > point in an efficient way. The Council could handle this, too, since waiting for a majority of players to declare something is generally much slower than waiting for three. >> >>> 6. designate Fora >> >> Certainly a proposal has the power to designate a forum, as does a >> SOE; >> perhaps a less powerful version of the Council of Elders could be >> brought back to deal with small things such as this. They could govern >> typo fixes, too. > > No--not if there's no forum to make a proposal in. We would need a SOE > here, or else > to codify a backup forum. Do we need an SOE if the only problem is > that we haven't designated > a forum as official? Council again - they don't necessarily need a forum to make decisions, as long as they can report to everyone what decisions they've made. >>> 11. diagnose comas. >> >> This, at least, I've already got drafts to deal with. Rather than >> making it a boring duty that has to be dealt with from time to time, >> I'm thinking we could use the half-dead as tools in the game of cards. >> Under the Baron's current proposed change to the card rules, all >> players would get a card each nweek, even those on Forced Leave; with >> Looting the Corpse, such cards could be claimed by active players. >> I plan on proposing a) more cards that let you somehow manipulate >> empty players, and b) cards to take over Garbage Collection. For >> example, __Living Death__ might say something like, "Choose a player >> who has not sent any message to the public forum in the past three >> nweeks. That player is put on Forced Leave." Playing this card on an >> effectively dead player would then make them a legal target for >> Looting >> the Corpse and other such cards; another card might remove any player >> from the game if that player has been on Forced Leave for two nweeks, >> and return eir cards to the Deck. >> Perhaps one card might even allow one to reincarnate a Lost Soul as a >> player on Forced Leave, to create new card banks... > > How about a Zombify card that lets you bring a dead player back to > life and control em? > (I will actually propose all this once we are out of SOE) That's sort of what I was thinking, but I'd want it to be a Metacard - I was thinking Reincarnation brings a Lost Soul back to the Forced Leave world, and the MetaCard Zombify (Reincarnation + 2xBrains...) turns them into a zombie who plays cards at your command, but is destroyed if targeted by Holy Water. -- Wonko From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Tue Dec 16 18:09:41 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Glotmorf) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 13:09:41 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] ideas... In-Reply-To: <3C6B84E4-2FE5-11D8-AC69-000A95842464@cornell.edu> References: Message-ID: <3FDF0415.1612.1AABCA@localhost> On 16 Dec 2003 at 11:31, Daniel Lepage wrote: > Typos could also be the responsibility of a Council of Elders; three > people can make decisions much faster than the full game, and if all > three have the privileges to alter the rules DB, any one of them could > fix the problem. > > > clock: > > The Council could handle this, too, since waiting for a majority of > players to declare something is generally much slower than waiting for > three. If one is enscripting administrative functions, one might consider having the "checkpoint button" -- the clock is stopped at a checkpoint while things are being taken care of, and then, when people are sure they can proceed, the checkpoint button can be pushed, which restarts the clock. Whether the clock is cron-controlled (as it is now) or database-controlled (as I advocate for the sake of non-admin scripting), this shouldn't be too difficult. > > >>> 6. designate Fora > > Council again - they don't necessarily need a forum to make decisions, > as long as they can report to everyone what decisions they've made. While I see where you're going with the Council of Elders -- it's actually what I envisioned doing with GR! -- you may want to choose another name, something like Maintenance Crew or Support Team, so as to not intimidate later new players. If there's the appearance of rulership by a Council of Elders, new players may think the game is Senatorial Nomic (ruled by a Senate rather than an Emperor), which limits the amount of power a newbie might think e can acquire. How did you have in mind to rotate duties? Or perhaps I should ask, *did* you have in mind to rotate duties? Glotmorf ----- The Ivory Mini-Tower: a blog study in Social Technology. http://ix.1sound.com/ivoryminitower From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Tue Dec 16 20:03:11 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 15:03:11 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] ideas... In-Reply-To: <3FDF0415.1612.1AABCA@localhost> Message-ID: On Tuesday, December 16, 2003, at 01:09 PM, Glotmorf wrote: > While I see where you're going with the Council of Elders -- > it's actually what I envisioned doing with GR! -- you may want > to choose another name, something like Maintenance Crew or > Support Team, so as to not intimidate later new players. If > there's the appearance of rulership by a Council of Elders, > new players may think the game is Senatorial Nomic (ruled by a > Senate rather than an Emperor), which limits the amount of > power a newbie might think e can acquire. I like the sound of "The Council of Elders" much more than "The Support Team"... Perhaps we need a brief "new players guide" that describes some of the fundamental concepts such as this council. > How did you have in mind to rotate duties? Or perhaps I > should ask, *did* you have in mind to rotate duties? Alright, here's what I'd like the game to be like: A Guild of Programmers would be responsible for generating and maintaining scripts to run most areas of the game. Some of these scripts would be entirely automatic, taking web or email input and sending the results wherever they were needed. Others would be designed to track things with a Minister's input, but designed in such a way that anyone could use them, so that the nonprogrammers could be ministers just by periodically submitting data to the script. Those outside of the Guild would thus be able to take ministries as well, using scripts written for them by the Guild. With all this automation in place, there would be very little need for an Administrator, as everyone would be partially responsible for administrative work. However, there are some decisions that require a central authority, or situations where one would be useful, such as the designation of fora. For these decisions, there would be the Council of Elders, a group of four elected players. The Council would be responsible for everything that couldn't be handled normally - for example, they'd have to track the state of objects in the periods between when new objects are created and when they're added to the general ministry system by the Guild programmers. They'd also have certain powers, such as the power to designate fora, and the power to judge CFIs when the normal methods of judgment broke down. The Council would be presided over by the closest thing to a central authority in the game, the Administrator. The Administrator would be responsible for keeping the Council in check (but would be on the Council as well). E'd also have the final say on any matter which the rest of the Council couldn't deal with - say, if a state of Emergency arose, and the rest of the Council couldn't be contacted. Every five nweeks, a new Election would be held to decide the members of Council. All players older than three nweeks would be eligible to be Councilors, and all Veterans and Higher would be eligible to be the Admin. The Council also might have the power to grant certain players exemption from the above guidelines; for example, if a Patriarch quit the game, then rejoined, e might be granted eligibility for Adminhood after three nweeks. This would not be regulated by the rules, but would be at the Council's discretion. That's basically my view on the Council. As for automation, I'd like to see a Guild of Programmers website, that worked like this: Each player would have a password, and could log into the website with said password to submit actions via various webforms. Some of these forms would feed the input directly into the scripts, while others might forward them to external scripts. Actions could also be submitted by email, using some sort of markup lanuage. Once upon a time, we frequently specified proposals and cfis and whatnot like this: Oops Give each player 20 points. A simple XML parser could turn that into a proposal object; such objects could also be generated by the website. The target service could be deduced from the website - if it was sent from the proposal submission page, presumably it's a proposal - or from the mail subject header, so that a mail with [PGo] in the subject would be sent automatically to the Political Go engine. Regardless, the created action object could then be sent to wherever it belonged, proposals to the prop engine, Tunnelers moves to Glotmorf's scripts, etc. The scripts would then tell the main Guild script who to notify about what. The first step towards making such a system would be to write a script that could send and receive email to and from players. Such a script would need to do this: * maintain a list of which email addresses correspond to which players * Allow players to specify new email addresses that should be considered as "theirs" * Allow players to describe which of their addresses should be notified of things - while I'd want my nomic.net, cornell.edu, and bnomic.org accounts to be accepted as me, I'd only want one of them to receive notifications when something is sent to me * Given a block of text and a player name, identify which email addresses should receive in the that player's name, and send the block on. Once that were in place, a great many things could plug into it. -- Wonko From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Tue Dec 16 20:52:51 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (bd) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 15:52:51 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] ideas... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200312161553.03399.bdonlan@bd-home-comp.no-ip.org> =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Tuesday 16 December 2003 03:03 pm, Daniel Lepage wrote: [snip] > Actions could also be submitted by email, using some sort of markup > lanuage. Once upon a time, we frequently specified proposals and cfis > and whatnot like this: > > Oops > > Give each player 20 points. > > > > A simple XML parser could turn that into a proposal object; Not XML. Eventually someone's going to forget to escape < or &. > such > objects could also be generated by the website. The target service > could be deduced from the website - if it was sent from the proposal > submission page, presumably it's a proposal - or from the mail subject > header, so that a mail with [PGo] in the subject would be sent > automatically to the Political Go engine. > Regardless, the created action object could then be sent to wherever > it belonged, proposals to the prop engine, Tunnelers moves to > Glotmorf's scripts, etc. The scripts would then tell the main Guild > script who to notify about what. Oh, I see, proposals become essentially programs in themselves? Interesting= =20 idea. You'd want to allow all the scripts to be downloaded to allow props t= o=20 be tested, of course. [snip] > Once that were in place, a great many things could plug into it. Sounds like a good idea. Nothing like a crisis to stimulate innovation, eh? =2D --=20 bd Your supervisor is thinking about you. =2D----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/33Cv+hz2VlChukwRAmk2AJ9/PCUxIMTeUVqWemp8CkxbVkeMgACfX4ia 0CkvAKnwPZPFVVquycSmrjQ=3D =3DSBzx =2D----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Wed Dec 17 02:22:16 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Baron von Skippy) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 21:22:16 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] ideas... Message-ID: >>While I see where you're going with the Council of Elders -- >>it's actually what I envisioned doing with GR! -- you may want >>to choose another name, something like Maintenance Crew or >>Support Team, so as to not intimidate later new players. If >>there's the appearance of rulership by a Council of Elders, >>new players may think the game is Senatorial Nomic (ruled by a >>Senate rather than an Emperor), which limits the amount of >>power a newbie might think e can acquire. > >I like the sound of "The Council of Elders" much more than "The Support >Team"... Perhaps we need a brief "new players guide" that describes some of >the fundamental concepts such as this council. -How about "Gerontocratic Circle?" Or "Senior Citizens' Council?" Or "Perennial Association?" Those all sound a lot less powerful, and almost mask what they are.- > >>How did you have in mind to rotate duties? Or perhaps I >>should ask, *did* you have in mind to rotate duties? > >Alright, here's what I'd like the game to be like: > A Guild of Programmers would be responsible for generating and maintaining >scripts to run most areas of the game. Some of these scripts would be >entirely automatic, taking web or email input and sending the results >wherever they were needed. Others would be designed to track things with a >Minister's input, but designed in such a way that anyone could use them, so >that the nonprogrammers could be ministers just by periodically submitting >data to the script. > Those outside of the Guild would thus be able to take ministries as well, >using scripts written for them by the Guild. > > With all this automation in place, there would be very little need for an >Administrator, as everyone would be partially responsible for >administrative work. However, there are some decisions that require a >central authority, or situations where one would be useful, such as the >designation of fora. For these decisions, there would be the Council of >Elders, a group of four elected players. The Council would be responsible >for everything that couldn't be handled normally - for example, they'd have >to track the state of objects in the periods between when new objects are >created and when they're added to the general ministry system by the Guild >programmers. They'd also have certain powers, such as the power to >designate fora, and the power to judge CFIs when the normal methods of >judgment broke down. > The Council would be presided over by the closest thing to a central >authority in the game, the Administrator. The Administrator would be >responsible for keeping the Council in check (but would be on the Council >as well). E'd also have the final say on any matter which the rest of the >Council couldn't deal with - say, if a state of Emergency arose, and the >rest of the Council couldn't be contacted. > Every five nweeks, a new Election would be held to decide the members of >Council. All players older than three nweeks would be eligible to be >Councilors, and all Veterans and Higher would be eligible to be the Admin. > >The Council also might have the power to grant certain players exemption >from the above guidelines; for example, if a Patriarch quit the game, then >rejoined, e might be granted eligibility for Adminhood after three nweeks. >This would not be regulated by the rules, but would be at the Council's >discretion. > >That's basically my view on the Council. > >As for automation, I'd like to see a Guild of Programmers website, that >worked like this: > Each player would have a password, and could log into the website with >said password to submit actions via various webforms. Some of these forms >would feed the input directly into the scripts, while others might forward >them to external scripts. > Actions could also be submitted by email, using some sort of markup >lanuage. Once upon a time, we frequently specified proposals and cfis and >whatnot like this: > > Oops > > Give each player 20 points. > > > >A simple XML parser could turn that into a proposal object; such objects >could also be generated by the website. The target service could be deduced >from the website - if it was sent from the proposal submission page, >presumably it's a proposal - or from the mail subject header, so that a >mail with [PGo] in the subject would be sent automatically to the Political >Go engine. > Regardless, the created action object could then be sent to wherever it >belonged, proposals to the prop engine, Tunnelers moves to Glotmorf's >scripts, etc. The scripts would then tell the main Guild script who to >notify about what. > >The first step towards making such a system would be to write a script that >could send and receive email to and from players. Such a script would need >to do this: > * maintain a list of which email addresses correspond to which players > * Allow players to specify new email addresses that should be considered >as "theirs" > * Allow players to describe which of their addresses should be notified of >things - while I'd want my nomic.net, cornell.edu, and bnomic.org accounts >to be accepted as me, I'd only want one of them to receive notifications >when something is sent to me > * Given a block of text and a player name, identify which email addresses >should receive in the that player's name, and send the block on. > > >Once that were in place, a great many things could plug into it. > -Indeed they could. Is there a "Dummies" version of what you just said?- [[BvS]] _________________________________________________________________ Have fun customizing MSN Messenger — learn how here! http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/reach_customize From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Wed Dec 17 01:08:51 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 20:08:51 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Refreshments Message-ID: <93C35A44-302D-11D8-9134-000A95842464@cornell.edu> I issue a Refresh Prop: {{ __Cleaning Up__ Amend r1282 to read: {{ __Seniority__ Once a player has been a player for at least as long as six complete consecutive months, that player recieves one point of Respect and the title "Veteran of B Nomic." Once a player has been a player for at least as long as twelve complete consecutive months, that player loses the title "Veteran of B Nomic" and recieves three points of Respect and the title "Patriarch of B Nomic" if their Gender is Male, "Matriarch of B Nomic" if their Gender is Female, or "Oligarch of B Nomic" if their gender is Drone. Once a player has been a player for at least as long as twenty-four complete consecutive months, that player loses the title given them under the previous paragraph, and recieves five points of Respect, and the title "Ancient One of B Nomic". The number of wins in eir possession is increased by one. However, this does not cause any events triggered by the awarding of a Win to occur. The player who has been in the game for the longest time holds the title "Revered Elder." The above titles are awarded in ascending order by length of time they represent, and are not awarded more than once to a player. If a player quits the game and rejoins, e is considered a new player for the purposes of this rule }} [[This tweaks the "award a win" bit so that it doesn't cause an entropy meltdown or a Circuit Breaker flip]] Repeal the rule entitled __No Win For You__, if one exists. Give all BNS to the bank, then transfer 2000 BNS to each player. [[ I don't see why anyone should bother recounting our BNS totals; even if we knew how much we had, I'd still want to level things before developing any use for it. ]] Destroy the following societies, if they exist: OrcTech Athena's Society The Secret Mookies Wonko's Cashbox The First International Bank of bd [[ There is no difference between any of these societies and a generic society just created - they have no resources, nor any special properties. Thus, anyone could create societies identical to these at any point; there is no point in keeping them around, especially since some of them may not still exist]] }} More will be added once I can get a good look at the DB; this removes at least the obvious problem of multiple win-resets as soon as the Pause ends. (BTW, the rules don't say 'turn off the clock for an nweek' or anything like that; I was just commenting that the number of wins due would cause the clock to turn off for the equivalent of an nweek, maybe longer if other birthdays arrive during that time) -- Wonko From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Wed Dec 17 04:56:37 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 23:56:37 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Re: State of Emergency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <651387BE-304D-11D8-9436-000A95842464@cornell.edu> I think we may now be in a state of Concerned Emergency... I've sent the message below to both b-public and b-private, and neither has come back to me. Is anyone else having problems with the backup lists? It shouldn't be too bad - the normal lists should be up by tomorrow. Anyway, here's my first Refresh prop. I intend to revise it, once I can see the whole societies and roster pages: I issue a Refresh Prop: {{ __Cleaning Up__ Amend r1282 to read: {{ __Seniority__ Once a player has been a player for at least as long as six complete consecutive months, that player recieves one point of Respect and the title "Veteran of B Nomic." Once a player has been a player for at least as long as twelve complete consecutive months, that player loses the title "Veteran of B Nomic" and recieves three points of Respect and the title "Patriarch of B Nomic" if their Gender is Male, "Matriarch of B Nomic" if their Gender is Female, or "Oligarch of B Nomic" if their gender is Drone. Once a player has been a player for at least as long as twenty-four complete consecutive months, that player loses the title given them under the previous paragraph, and recieves five points of Respect, and the title "Ancient One of B Nomic". The number of wins in eir possession is increased by one. However, this does not cause any events triggered by the awarding of a Win to occur. The player who has been in the game for the longest time holds the title "Revered Elder." The above titles are awarded in ascending order by length of time they represent, and are not awarded more than once to a player. If a player quits the game and rejoins, e is considered a new player for the purposes of this rule }} [[This tweaks the "award a win" bit so that it doesn't cause an entropy meltdown or a Circuit Breaker flip]] Repeal the rule entitled __No Win For You__, if one exists. Give all BNS to the bank, then transfer 2000 BNS to each player. [[ I don't see why anyone should bother recounting our BNS totals; even if we knew how much we had, I'd still want to level things before developing any use for it. ]] Destroy the following societies, if they exist: OrcTech Athena's Society The Secret Mookies Wonko's Cashbox The First International Bank of bd [[ There is no difference between any of these societies and a generic society just created - they have no resources, nor any special properties. Thus, anyone could create societies identical to these at any point; there is no point in keeping them around, especially since some of them may not still exist]] }} More will be added once I can get a good look at the DB; this removes at least the obvious problem of multiple win-resets as soon as the Pause ends. (BTW, the rules don't say 'turn off the clock for an nweek' or anything like that; I was just commenting that the number of wins due would cause the clock to turn off for the equivalent of an nweek, maybe longer if other birthdays arrive during that time) -- Wonko From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Wed Dec 17 22:28:48 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Glotmorf) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 17:28:48 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Cleaning up the cleaning-up Message-ID: <3FE09250.27667.9929DF@localhost> Not seeing an update to Wonko's prop, I submit my own version of it... {{ __Cleaning Up -- Glotmorf's Version__ Insert after the first paragraph of Rule 0 the following: "If, during the Procedure, a majority of the aforementioned body of players recognize that there is no longer a state of emergency, then the Procedure ends with no changes to the gamestate." Amend r1282 to read: {{ __Seniority__ Once a player has been a player for at least as long as six complete consecutive months, that player recieves one point of Respect and the title "Veteran of B Nomic." Once a player has been a player for at least as long as twelve complete consecutive months, that player loses the title "Veteran of B Nomic" and recieves three points of Respect and the title "Patriarch of B Nomic" if their Gender is Male, "Matriarch of B Nomic" if their Gender is Female, or "Oligarch of B Nomic" if their gender is Drone. Once a player has been a player for at least as long as twenty-four complete consecutive months, that player loses the title given them under the previous paragraph, and recieves five points of Respect, and the title "Ancient One of B Nomic". The number of wins in eir possession is increased by one. However, this does not cause any events triggered by the awarding of a Win to occur. The player who has been in the game for the longest time holds the title "Revered Elder." The above titles are awarded in ascending order by length of time they represent, and are not awarded more than once to a player. If a player quits the game and rejoins, e is considered a new player for the purposes of this rule }} [[This tweaks the "award a win" bit so that it doesn't cause an entropy meltdown or a Circuit Breaker flip]] Repeal the rule entitled __No Win For You__, if one exists. Give all BNS to the bank, then transfer 2000 BNS to each player. [[ I don't see why anyone should bother recounting our BNS totals; even if we knew how much we had, I'd still want to level things before developing any use for it. ]] Destroy the following societies, if they exist: The Secret Mookies Wonko's Cashbox The First International Bank of bd }} ----- The Ivory Mini-Tower: a blog study in Social Technology. http://ix.1sound.com/ivoryminitower From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Thu Dec 18 12:50:33 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Glotmorf) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 07:50:33 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Wonko's refresh prop Message-ID: <3FE15C49.18036.CC96A@localhost> In eir refresh prop, Wonko is proposing the destruction of, among other things, Athena's Society and OrcTech, both of which effectively belong to me. I have objected to this, but so far e's still insisting that that should be part of eir refresh prop. First of all, I dislike the idea that a player's possessions might be simply voted out of existence because another player doesn't see a purpose for them. I don't like it happening to me, and I suspect no one else would want it to happen to them. But while I dislike the idea of doing it as a proposal, I truly resent it being done as a refresh prop, since a refresh prop doesn't even require majority approval. Once the Procedure begins, it will implement a proposed refresh prop, whichever one that is, and if there's only one refresh prop that one will get implemented because there's no other to choose from. Therefore, Wonko's very proposing of a refresh prop that destroys my societies would in fact guarantee their destruction, in the name of "cleaning up". Only my submission of another refresh prop prevents Wonko's "cleaning up" from occurring solely on eir say-so. I'll try to keep my refresh prop current as per comparable changes in Wonko's, but I ask for player support for my refresh prop in the name of sanctity of property. Glotmorf ----- The Ivory Mini-Tower: a blog study in Social Technology. http://ix.1sound.com/ivoryminitower From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Fri Dec 19 00:38:09 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Zarpint Jeremy Cook) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 19:38:09 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Wonko's refresh prop In-Reply-To: <3FE15C49.18036.CC96A@localhost> References: <3FE15C49.18036.CC96A@localhost> Message-ID: AFAIK societies are not "property" in the sense alcoholic beverages or Gnomes or something are. You may at the current time have effective control over them, but they aren't objects in your possession. Also, if you don't like a refresh prop making certain changes, include that change to Rule 0 in your refresh prop, but until that or another such prop passes, there's no reason for player support other than supporting you wanting to keep them. Also, it seems a dangerous precedent to set that a refresh prop may not take away an object or society from a player. While in this case such an action is not needed to maintain the game, it might be at some time. Also the third, if players are prohibited from otherwise legal actions when On Leave, they are prohibited from being forced to do them by a society. It looks to me like they are so prohibited. Zarpint On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Glotmorf wrote: > In eir refresh prop, Wonko is proposing the destruction of, among other things, > Athena's Society and OrcTech, both of which effectively belong to me. I have > objected to this, but so far e's still insisting that that should be part of eir refresh prop. > > First of all, I dislike the idea that a player's possessions might be simply voted out of > existence because another player doesn't see a purpose for them. I don't like it > happening to me, and I suspect no one else would want it to happen to them. > > But while I dislike the idea of doing it as a proposal, I truly resent it being done as a > refresh prop, since a refresh prop doesn't even require majority approval. Once the > Procedure begins, it will implement a proposed refresh prop, whichever one that is, > and if there's only one refresh prop that one will get implemented because there's no > other to choose from. > > Therefore, Wonko's very proposing of a refresh prop that destroys my societies > would in fact guarantee their destruction, in the name of "cleaning up". Only my > submission of another refresh prop prevents Wonko's "cleaning up" from occurring > solely on eir say-so. > > I'll try to keep my refresh prop current as per comparable changes in Wonko's, but I > ask for player support for my refresh prop in the name of sanctity of property. > > Glotmorf > > ----- > The Ivory Mini-Tower: a blog study in Social Technology. > http://ix.1sound.com/ivoryminitower > > > _______________________________________________ > BNomic-Public mailing list > BNomic-Public@ysolde.ucam.org > http://www.ysolde.ucam.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bnomic-public > -- Zarpint "All thy toiling only breeds new dreams, new dreams; Jeremy Cook there is no truth saving in thine own heart." mcfoufou@umich.edu --W.B. Yeats, The Song of the Happy Shepherd grep -r kibo / "Movements are the problem, not the answer to problems." From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Fri Dec 19 00:44:34 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (SkArcher) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 00:44:34 -0000 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Zarpint In-Reply-To: References: <3FE15C49.18036.CC96A@localhost> Message-ID: I'm not sure if anyone mentioned to you, as you won't be on the main list, but nomic.net is back up. SkArcher From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Fri Dec 19 03:58:56 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:58:56 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Wonko's refresh prop In-Reply-To: <3FE15C49.18036.CC96A@localhost> Message-ID: On Thursday, December 18, 2003, at 07:50 AM, Glotmorf wrote: > In eir refresh prop, Wonko is proposing the destruction of, among > other things, > Athena's Society and OrcTech, both of which effectively belong to me. > I have > objected to this, but so far e's still insisting that that should be > part of eir refresh prop. > > First of all, I dislike the idea that a player's possessions might be > simply voted out of > existence because another player doesn't see a purpose for them. I > don't like it > happening to me, and I suspect no one else would want it to happen to > them. > > But while I dislike the idea of doing it as a proposal, I truly resent > it being done as a > refresh prop, since a refresh prop doesn't even require majority > approval. Once the > Procedure begins, it will implement a proposed refresh prop, whichever > one that is, > and if there's only one refresh prop that one will get implemented > because there's no > other to choose from. > > Therefore, Wonko's very proposing of a refresh prop that destroys my > societies > would in fact guarantee their destruction, in the name of "cleaning > up". Only my > submission of another refresh prop prevents Wonko's "cleaning up" from > occurring > solely on eir say-so. > > I'll try to keep my refresh prop current as per comparable changes in > Wonko's, but I > ask for player support for my refresh prop in the name of sanctity of > property. I find it hard to respect your 'sanctity of property' when the societies I Refreshed to destroy were taken by you from other players in the first place, and while you still hold my WBE :) I didn't really think about this as destruction of property. My goal was more along the lines of garbage collection - since the societies have done nothing in a long time, and it seems unlikely that they will. Thus, I am trying to remove them, as they appear to be very similar to absent players. I disagree with the claim that these societies are your "property". If they are, then I wholeheartedly support their destruction - I don't like the idea of a society being 'owned' by any single player. IMHO, a society is an entity much like a player; while I might go so far as to agree that it is owned collectively by the players of the game, or even just by the members of the society, I would not consider it to be owned by a single player unless it were a scam society such as the Int'l Bank of bd or Wonko's Cashbox; if a society exists solely for the purposes of exploiting a bug in the rules, I am entirely in favor of destroying it and patching the hole. OrcTech certainly is a candidate for Garbage Collection - nobody uses it for anything, and nothing distinguishes it from a newly-created society. Therefore, there is no reason why it should continue to exist as a society. Athena's Society, the attempted Tontine, has a potential benefit, but only if the society has the power to force a player to transfer eir points while being On Leave. Having now read the rules in more detail, I am convinced that the society does not. I stand by my claim that r205 at the moment effectively traps players who are On Leave; even if I'm wrong, r205 states that coming Off Leave is implicit not in the act of taking a game action, but in the act of taking a game action *in the public forum*. This requires the player to post an action to the public forum themselves; a society obviously cannot force somebody to do this, as even the Ruleset itself doesn't have that power. Upon further consideration, I suspect that automation scripts in general do not work; even the old official Automation Scripts weren't legal, though the SoL has now lapsed. I say this based on r16/3: "Actions may only be taken in public fora." This means that a player may not take any action unless e explicitly states that e does in the public forum; automation scripts and societies failed to supersede this rule, and so neither has or ever had the power to force a player to take an action. Nonetheless, I'd be happy to keep two copies of my RP, one with the societal repeals, one without. But I encourage people to vote for the one which repeals them. New Refresh Prop(s) coming soon. -- Wonko From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Fri Dec 19 05:16:12 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 00:16:12 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Ah, so Refreshing Message-ID: <7611A6ED-31E2-11D8-95DC-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Announcements: Nomic.net has returned! Unfortunately, Rule 0/0 doesn't provide a way for an emergency to be stopped in mid-procedure, so this emergency will continue until the end of the Process. In addition, Wonko has modified eir Refresh Prop. Finally, the deadline for submitting refresh props is midnight UTC of today, December 19th. Emergency Recognitions: Wonko has modified eir Refresh Prop (that's this message - see below) There are currently two Refresh Props: Cleaning Up, v2.0 (Wonko): No votes cast Cleaning Up -- Glotmorf's Version: No votes cast First-Round Voting will begin at midnight UTC, on today, December 19th. Any Refresh Props or alterations to the same submitted after then will be refused. All votes must be sent to the official forum, . Actions: I thought about things a bit more, and realized that it was hypocritical of me to destroy AS and OrcTech in my Refresh without also destroying vSET, WBE, The Upper House, and others; since I'd rather not destroy some of these, I've dropped the double standard and removed AS and OrcTech from the nuke list. The list now contains only those societies whose existence or legality is questionable - for example, I think I destroyed the Cashbox, but I'm not sure; and House Grem has no legal basis, since we don't have Insta-Rules, but it's still listed on the page. This makes sure that everything that might not exist actually does. I do intend to write a GC rule for societies once we're in normal gameplay again, and I stand by my arguments for why the Tontine cannot work. Thus, Glotmorf will have time to do something with AS and OrcTech if e wishes to preserve them, but if they continue to be unused as they are now, they will be destroyed (as will WBE, vSET, and the Upper House). But that will not happen now. I know there have been problems in the past where large proposals left people confused about the state of some rules, so I'll provide a brief overview of what this refresh prop does: * It fixes seniority, so that the rule reads better and the Wins awarded by it don't cause the normal game-resetting effects to occur * It relaxes the Upstanding Restriction, so that Activity, Charm, and Respect only need to be nonnegative to win, not positive (i.e., you can still win with 0 of each) * It unflips the Circuit Breaker from Iain's win. * It sets each player's BNS to 2000 * It adds a means of ending an Emergency early if a majority of the players agree * It fixes the wording of the speed limit so that it only works in one direction, and doesn't result in undefined scores * It destroys all societies whose existence is questionable, as described in above * It fixes the On Leave trap in r205 * It destroys all points, clearing out my score regardless of what it is * It sets the gamestate to where it should be, with Dave as Admin, s-b as the pf, the clock where it was when we began, and no players recognizing an emergency. I do not think this is strictly necessary, but it is good to be safe and to be clear. I amend my Refresh Prop to read: {{ __Cleaning Up, v2.0__ Amend r1282 to read: {{ __Seniority__ There exist five groups of players called Age Groups. No player may ever be in more than one age group. All players who have been playing for less than two nweeks are in the Newbie age group. Such players are called Newbies. All players who have been playing for more than two nweeks but less than six months are in the Experienced age group. Such players have no special description for their age group. All players who have been playing for between six months and one year are in the Veteran age group. Such players are called Veterans. When a player becomes a Veteran, e receives one point of Respect. All players who have been playing for between one year and two years are in the Oligarch age group. Such players may be referred to as Oligarchs. They may also be referred to by whichever of the following titles matches their gender: Male: Patriarch Female: Matriarch Drone: Neutriarch Undeclared: Waffliarch When a player becomes an Oligarch, e receives three points of Respect. All players who have been playing for more than two years are in the Elder age group. Such players may be referred to as Ancients. They may also be referred to by the title matching their genders as described in the above section, with "Elder" prepended to the title. When a player becomes an Ancient, e receives five points of Respect, and the number of Wins in eir possession increases by one. However, this does not cause any events triggered by the awarding of a Win to occur. This supersedes any and all rules which govern the events triggered by a Win. If a player quits the game and rejoins, e is considered a new player for the purposes of this rule; that is, e will begin over as a Newbie. The player who has been in the game for the longest time holds the title "Revered Elder." }} [[This addresses all previously mentioned problems with this rule, I believe, and clarifies the behavior of the age classes.]] Suppress all Wins and points of Respect that would be given to any player or players immediately upon the passage of this rule, except those given to players in a different Age Group than the one they would have been in had this rule existed prior to December 5th of this year. [[One could argue that somebody who was a Veteran before was nonetheless not in the Veteran Age Group, and thus that as soon as this rule takes effect, such players should receive the Veteran bonus a second time; this suppresses that.]] Repeal the rule entitled __No Win For You__, if one exists. Give all BNS to the bank, then transfer 2000 BNS to each player. [[ I don't see why anyone should bother recounting our BNS totals; even if we knew how much we had, I'd still want to level things before developing any use for it. ]] Add to the end of r0 the text: {{ If, during an emergency, a majority of the most recently recognized body of players recognizes that there is no longer an emergency, the Procedure immediately ends, if it is currently happening, and the Emergency ends with no change to the state of the game. }} Replace the text of the rule entitled __An Upstanding Citizen__ with: {{ A player is said to be Upstanding if and only if they have nonegative Charm, Activity, and Respect. A Player who isn't Upstanding may not be awarded a Win. This rule supersedes all rules that award wins. }} [[It was complained that the Upstanding rule was too limiting. This relaxes the restrictions to allow zeroed dimensions as well.]] Destroy the following societies, if they exist: Orc's Exploits of Props e Voted Against The Secret Mookies Dewey, Cheetum, and Howe von Skippy Overproduction, Inc. von Skippy Experimental Technologies [[Note to the baron: This is society 1184, not society 1591. 1591 is the vSET with a charter. 1184 doesn't really have much of one. I assume 1184 exists in error]] Wonko's Cashbox The First International Bank of bd Nzurich House Grem [[ This list has now been stripped down to the list of societies that are listed on the socs page but whose existence is questionable, and which probably don't exist. If the members of any of these societies wish to confirm their existence, and affirm that they should continue to exist, let me know and I will remove them from the list. ]] [[ The note about being On Leave stands: Interestingly enough, it is legal for a player to come Off Leave if the Clock is Off, since the rule later notes that players may come On or Off Leave even while the Clock is off. But when it's on, taking any action in the game is illegal for them. So we'll fix that too: ]] Replace the text of r205 with: {{ Each player, at any given time, shall be either On Leave or Off Leave. Any player who is Off Leave may, by posting a message on a public forum, declare emself to be On Leave. Any player who is On Leave may, by posting a message on a public forum, declare emself to be Off Leave. By taking any game action on a public forum, a player who is On Leave automatically, by implication, declares emself to be Off Leave. A player who is On Leave cannot be selected by any process which randomly selects a player, and may not take any game actions except coming Off Leave. If more than 2/3 of all players are On Leave, The Clock shall become Off until such time as at least 1/3 of all players are Off Leave. Players may place emselves On Leave or Off Leave while The Clock is Off. At any time, whether On Leave or Off Leave, a player may specify any amount of time, using any readily understandable measurement (ntime or regular time), with an absolute limit of one year, to be Lurking. Any player who is Lurking may cease to be by declaring such. Any player who is not already On Leave, whose Activity has decreased for two consecutive nweeks, and is not Lurking, shall be placed On Leave, and also be made On Forced Leave until such time e is not On Leave. }} [[This fixes a typo, and allows players that are On Leave to come Off Leave]] Set the Clock to nweek 55, nday 3. [[where it was when we stopped; to the best of my knowledge, it's still there.]] Make David E. Smith the administrator, and spoon-business@nomic.net the sole public forum.[[Not needed, but good to be safe.]] Change the state of the game so that no player is recognizing an emergency. Amend r1284 [[Speed Limit]] to read: {{ __Speed Limit__ {*(Basics,Objects:Points)*} For the purposes of this rule, a player's Base Score is the score e had at the beginning of the current nweek. If at any time a player's score exceeds 250 + (eir Base Score), eir score is immediately set to 250 + (eir Base Score). The player then recieves N Style points, up to a maximum of 30, where N is 1/10 of the number of points taken away by the previous step, rounded up. The player may not Win in the instant before this occurs. }} Destroy all Points. [[since I may or may not have points]] }} -- Wonko Emergency Administrator From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Fri Dec 19 09:41:31 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Glotmorf) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 04:41:31 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Ah, so Refreshing In-Reply-To: <7611A6ED-31E2-11D8-95DC-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <3FE2817B.13829.1EFE882@localhost> On 19 Dec 2003 at 0:16, Daniel Lepage wrote: > Destroy all Points. [[since I may or may not have points]] Er. Why? Glotmorf ----- The Ivory Mini-Tower: a blog study in Social Technology. http://ix.1sound.com/ivoryminitower From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Fri Dec 19 10:13:36 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (SkArcher) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:13:36 -0000 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Ah, so Refreshing In-Reply-To: <3FE2817B.13829.1EFE882@localhost> References: <3FE2817B.13829.1EFE882@localhost> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 04:41:31 -0500, Glotmorf wrote: > On 19 Dec 2003 at 0:16, Daniel Lepage wrote: > >> Destroy all Points. [[since I may or may not have points]] > > Er. Why? > > Glotmorf > None of us have any anyway, since Ian (and possibly Rob) won. In fact none of us have anything, except respect. Hence why the arguement over Athenas society is a bit of a pointless effort. SkArcher From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Fri Dec 19 15:43:29 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 10:43:29 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Ah, so Refreshing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <179CF59C-323A-11D8-95DC-000A95842464@cornell.edu> On Friday, December 19, 2003, at 05:13 AM, SkArcher wrote: > On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 04:41:31 -0500, Glotmorf > wrote: > >> On 19 Dec 2003 at 0:16, Daniel Lepage wrote: >> >>> Destroy all Points. [[since I may or may not have points]] >> >> Er. Why? >> >> Glotmorf >> > > None of us have any anyway, since Ian (and possibly Rob) won. > > In fact none of us have anything, except respect. Hence why the > arguement over Athenas society is a bit of a pointless effort. I might have some points, though. It depends on the interpretation of the Speed Limit, and thus on a CFI that has not yet been recognized - if the Speed Limit works both ways, as I submit that it does, then when Iain's win set my score to zero from 292, my score should have become equal to "the value that makes the difference 250". This is bad, as there are two such values, and so my score cannot be adequately determined right now. Clearing all scores fixes that (I don't think anyone else had enough points to make the Speed Limit kick in, but we might as well be safe). -- Wonko From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Fri Dec 19 19:22:53 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (=?iso-8859-1?q?Bill=20Adlam?=) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 19:22:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [BNomic-Public] Ah, so Refreshing In-Reply-To: <7611A6ED-31E2-11D8-95DC-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <20031219192253.97340.qmail@web40307.mail.yahoo.com> Comments on Wonko's refresh prop: I suggest replacing both instances of 'supersedes' with 'takes precedence over'. Otherwise it looks like those other rules are repealed. Did you intend to leave players who have been playing for exactly two nweeks in no age group? And, since later sections of the rule take precedence over earlier sections, it's possible to be both a Newbie and a Veteran at once, if 2 nweeks drag out for longer than 6 months (not likely, I admit). Also, the sentence: > By taking any game action on a public forum, a player who is On Leave > automatically, by implication, declares emself to be Off Leave. Might be better as: 'By attempting any game action on a public forum, other than declaring emself Off Leave, a player who is On Leave automatically, by implication, first declares emself to be Off Leave. ' A player who is On Leave can't actually take any game action on a public forum, except coming Off Leave. Coming Off Leave should happen first, but should not lead to an infinite cascade of implicit declarations. I know this bit isn't any different from the existing text, but: > Any player who > is not already On Leave, whose Activity has decreased for two > consecutive nweeks, and is not Lurking, shall be placed On Leave, and It ought to explicitly say the last 2 nweeks, not just any two consecutive nweeks. Also 'has decreased for two consecutive nweeks' is a little vague. The way I interpret it, if someone wins next nweek, then anyone who had Activity > 1 before this nweek and who votes this nweek will be put on Forced Leave as soon as the second post-win reset occurs. > Amend r1284 [[Speed Limit]] to read: It should now be titled 'Velocity Limit'. Sagitta ________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Fri Dec 19 22:02:23 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Glotmorf) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2003 17:02:23 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Ah, so Refreshing In-Reply-To: <179CF59C-323A-11D8-95DC-000A95842464@cornell.edu> References: Message-ID: <3FE32F1F.27367.10FD521@localhost> On 19 Dec 2003 at 10:43, Daniel Lepage wrote: > > On Friday, December 19, 2003, at 05:13 AM, SkArcher wrote: > > > On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 04:41:31 -0500, Glotmorf > > wrote: > > > >> On 19 Dec 2003 at 0:16, Daniel Lepage wrote: > >> > >>> Destroy all Points. [[since I may or may not have points]] > >> > >> Er. Why? > >> > >> Glotmorf > >> > > > > None of us have any anyway, since Ian (and possibly Rob) won. > > > > In fact none of us have anything, except respect. Hence why the > > arguement over Athenas society is a bit of a pointless effort. > > I might have some points, though. It depends on the interpretation of > the Speed Limit, and thus on a CFI that has not yet been recognized - > if the Speed Limit works both ways, as I submit that it does, then when > Iain's win set my score to zero from 292, my score should have become > equal to "the value that makes the difference 250". This is bad, as > there are two such values, and so my score cannot be adequately > determined right now. Clearing all scores fixes that (I don't think > anyone else had enough points to make the Speed Limit kick in, but we > might as well be safe). I have some points stored in the Nzurich society. If the standard procedure for a win is followed, they'd stay, since society points aren't a dimension. But if we "destroy all points", those will go away too. Glotmorf ----- The Ivory Mini-Tower: a blog study in Social Technology. http://ix.1sound.com/ivoryminitower From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sat Dec 20 05:34:41 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 00:34:41 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Ah, so Refreshing In-Reply-To: <20031219192253.97340.qmail@web40307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <35825ED6-32AE-11D8-92AF-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Well, for various reasons, I got back too late to amend my refresh props to fix these bugs. So instead I will use a strange auto-correction mechanism a friend of mine developed for dealing with difficult mathematical problems. We call this method "dismissing the problem as trivial". The problems: > I suggest replacing both instances of 'supersedes' with 'takes > precedence over'. Otherwise it looks like those other rules are > repealed. For reasons unknown to me, the word "supersede" seems to be an antonym for "defer to" in the world of Nomic. I know not why this is the case, but that's what it always gets interpreted to mean. I think it has to do with a sentence in the Suberian ruleset: "If at least one of the rules in conflict explicitly says of itself that it defers to another rule (or type of rule) or takes precedence over another rule (or type of rule), then such provisions shall supersede the numerical method for determining precedence." The 'supersede' in this sentence essentially meant the same thing as 'take precedence over'; so it became a common thing. It is an incorrect use of the word in standard english, though. > Did you intend to leave players who have been playing for exactly two > nweeks in no age group? And, since later sections of the rule take > precedence over earlier sections, it's possible to be both a Newbie and > a Veteran at once, if 2 nweeks drag out for longer than 6 months (not > likely, I admit). I forgot that it was possible to have played for exactly two nweeks for any length of time. I'll propose to fix this once we're out of the emergency. > Also, the sentence: >> By taking any game action on a public forum, a player who is On Leave >> automatically, by implication, declares emself to be Off Leave. > > Might be better as: > 'By attempting any game action on a public forum, other than declaring > emself Off Leave, a player who is On Leave automatically, by > implication, first declares emself to be Off Leave. ' > > A player who is On Leave can't actually take any game action on a > public forum, except coming Off Leave. Coming Off Leave should happen > first, but should not lead to an infinite cascade of implicit > declarations. It can't cascade - by taking the act of coming Off Leave in a public, they implicitly declare emself to be Off Leave. But the implicit declaration doesn't happen in a public forum, so it doesn't imply that they do it again. In fact, the implicit declaration shouldn't legally happen at all - actions may only be taken in a public forum. > I know this bit isn't any different from the existing text, but: >> Any player who >> is not already On Leave, whose Activity has decreased for two >> consecutive nweeks, and is not Lurking, shall be placed On Leave, and > > It ought to explicitly say the last 2 nweeks, not just any two > consecutive nweeks. Also 'has decreased for two consecutive nweeks' is > a little vague. The way I interpret it, if someone wins next nweek, > then anyone who had Activity > 1 before this nweek and who votes this > nweek will be put on Forced Leave as soon as the second post-win reset > occurs. I assumed that such things would be fixed by normal proposal after the emergency. It might make more sense to base this on how long it's been since a player posted, not on how long eir activity has been decreasing, for exactly the reason you gave above. (it was even worse back when we had Apophis priest-destruction - I could have put any player on Forced Leave at will, had there been any good reason. Unfortunately, there wasn't.) I have a proposal to completely remake the Forced Leave system anyway, so much of this will be changing anyway. >> Amend r1284 [[Speed Limit]] to read: > > It should now be titled 'Velocity Limit'. True. Finally, with regards to Glotmorf's complaint about Nzurich, I agree that my prop will destroy Nzurich's points. It also destroys the points stored in Wonko's Cashbox, The Int'l Bank of bd, and SkArcher's insurance. The points owned by the various cashboxes are in effect extensions of players' scores, so in the spirit of the victory rule, I believe our scores should actually become zero, not become 'zero plus whatever we stole earlier'. I also thought that you had destroyed Nzurich a while ago; it's on my list of societies that probably don't exist, but should be destroyed anyway just to be sure. I keep meaning to fix all the bugs in societies, but I never seem to get around to it... I think what we need is a generic class of object that can take basic actions, possess and trade objects, etc., and then Players and Societies can both be this sort of object. That will eliminate a lot of the messy wording in r578. I also think that a society should be banned from taking any actions other than accepting members, altering its charter, and disbanding itself if it only has one member - enough scam societies have been made that I'm beginning to doubt that the benefits really outweigh the chaos. A protoprop: {{ __Actors and Executors__ An Actor is a Game Object that can take actions. An Executor is an Outsider with the power to post messages in a public forum. Each Actor has an Executor. When an Actor's Executor posts a message in a public forum stating that that Actor takes an action, that Actor takes that action unless the rules prohibit it. If the rules do not provide an Executor for an Actor, that Actor cannot take actions. Players are Actors. Each Player is eir own Executor, unless the rules specify otherwise. The Admin is an Actor. E is eir own Executor. Societies are Actors. Each Society must have a member who is its Executor; the societies charter may specify which of its members is its Executor. If it does not, then the player who has been in the society for the longest period of time is its Executor. A society cannot take any action that its charter forbids it to take. }} Obviously this needs to be cleaned up and altered to fit well in the ruleset, but this seems like a good start. The only real change it makes to the way the rules behave is that it destroys the possibility of Societal Auto-actions; I believe this is acceptable, as all Auto-Actions that exist now should be reported to the forum anyway, and usually are - if a charter states "this society accepts all members who apply for membership", then there's usually somebody there to point out that "As per its charter, Society X automatically accepts player Y". All this does is force societies to continue doing that, thus taking the burden of remembering such things off of the administrator. -- Wonko From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sat Dec 20 05:46:05 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 00:46:05 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] First Round Voting Message-ID: Under Rule 0/0, the Pause has reached 5. Refresh Props will no longer be accepted. First Round Voting has begun. There are two refresh proposals on the Ballot: 1 __Cleaning Up, v2.0__ (Wonko): 0 votes cast 2 __Cleaning Up -- Glotmorf's Version__ (Glotmorf): 0 votes cast Each player, as well as the administrator, may submit one vote for either of them. Full texts are available at All votes must be submitted to Wonko (me) via the bnomic-public mailing list. First Round Voting will last until midnight UTC of Sunday, December 21st, at which time the selected Refresh Prop will be announced. It seems unlikely that second-round voting will be needed - if it is, then that means both props tied in first round, in which case second-round voting will presumably go the same way. I vote for __Cleaning Up, v2.0__. -- Wonko From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sat Dec 20 06:20:41 2003 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Zarpint Jeremy Cook) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2003 01:20:41 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] First Round Voting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I believe I can vote, since I posted to a public forum my request to join and am consequently a Player by r14. If I am not a player, I wish to become a player who is known by the name of "Zarpint the Incomplete". I vote for Wonko's proposal "__Cleaning Up, v2.0__". Zarpint On Sat, 20 Dec 2003, Daniel Lepage wrote: > Under Rule 0/0, the Pause has reached 5. Refresh Props will no longer > be accepted. > > First Round Voting has begun. There are two refresh proposals on the > Ballot: > 1 __Cleaning Up, v2.0__ (Wonko): 0 votes cast > 2 __Cleaning Up -- Glotmorf's Version__ (Glotmorf): 0 votes cast > > Each player, as well as the administrator, may submit one vote for > either of them. Full texts are available at > > > All votes must be submitted to Wonko (me) via the bnomic-public mailing > list. > > First Round Voting will last until midnight UTC of Sunday, December > 21st, at which time the selected Refresh Prop will be announced. > > > It seems unlikely that second-round voting will be needed - if it is, > then that means both props tied in first round, in which case > second-round voting will presumably go the same way. > > > I vote for __Cleaning Up, v2.0__. > > -- > Wonko > > > _______________________________________________ > BNomic-Public mailing list > BNomic-Public@ysolde.ucam.org > http://www.ysolde.ucam.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bnomic-public > -- Zarpint "All thy toiling only breeds new dreams, new dreams; Jeremy Cook there is no truth saving in thine own heart." mcfoufou@umich.edu --W.B. Yeats, The Song of the Happy Shepherd grep -r kibo / "Movements are the problem, not the answer to problems."