From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Mon Sep 13 05:10:57 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 00:10:57 -0400 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Quick! To the Bat-Fax! Message-ID: In the absence of nomic.net, we must fall back to our backup lists... These seem to be working, and it even looks like we have some former players and semi-former players subscribed... For those of you who haven't been paying attention in the last few nweeks, things have been changing rather quickly... we've moved most of the important documents to www.bnomic.org, but still rely fairly heavily on nomic.net, mostly because www.nomic.net/~wonko/cgi-bin/moin.cgi is a wiki devoted solely to this game, and because the mailing lists run on it too. Unfortunately, Joel's having some unpleasant server issues right now. We have the rules and some out-of-date wiki info on bnomic.org, so we might be able to move the game over to these new lists and keep going. If this message comes back to me properly, I'll notify everyone who's joined since the last time we needed these lists, and we can get started again. Oh, and Dave got a real job and no longer had time to run the game, so I'm basically the admin now. Which means we're doing a lot of ministry stuff, because I'm not as good at this as Dave was. So, can anyone hear me? -- Wonko "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." -Plato From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Tue Sep 14 03:21:29 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Bryan Donlan) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 22:21:29 -0400 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Quick! To the Bat-Fax! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3e83404904091319214bed74a5@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 13 Sep 2004 00:10:57 -0400, Daniel Lepage wrote: [...] > So, can anyone hear me? Yup. -- bd From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Wed Sep 15 14:46:39 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:46:39 -0400 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Let the games begin Message-ID: Ok, I hereby designate bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org to be a public forum. Hopefully nomic.net will be right back up on the 19th, because the wiki on bnomic.org still doesn't work well enough to run my auto-proposing software... for now we'll have to submit them the old fashioned way, and I'll have to put them in myself when the server comes back up. Ballot results forthcoming. -- Wonko In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time someting like that happened in politics or religion. -Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP Keynote Address From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Wed Sep 15 14:47:55 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:47:55 -0400 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Nweek 68 Results Message-ID: The results are in! Proposal 1899/0 Technological Go (Zarpint) AFF: Phil, BeeDee ABS: Norinel, PlayerIain Counts (Y/N/A/S) : (2-0-2-0). Measure Passes. Zarpint gains 10 points. Created 1854/1. Proposal 1900/0 Python Enterprises (Zarpint) AFF: Phil, PlayerIain ABS: Norinel SHL: BeeDee Counts (Y/N/A/S) : (2-0-1-1). Measure Passes. Zarpint gains 4 points. Created r1898/0. Proposal 1901/0 Card balancing act (Zarpint) AFF: Phil, BeeDee, PlayerIain NEG: Norinel Counts (Y/N/A/S) : (3-1-0-0). Measure Passes. Zarpint gains 12 points. Did a lot of card-messing around. Ugh. Everyone's hand changes. The Voice and theta end up slightly short, because this prop removes too many cards to finish its 'give everyone who lost cards replacements' clause. Proposal 1902/0 Reworking Cards (Wonko) AFF: Norinel, Phil, BeeDee ABS: PlayerIain Counts (Y/N/A/S) : (3-0-1-0). Measure Passes. Wonko gains 13 points. Did a *lot* of card-messing around. p1901 was a cakewalk next to this... I wrote at least three new scripts just to process this proposal. Ah well, it's my own prop, so I can't really bitch about it. Anyway, I'm not gonna give out the exact results right now, I'm just gonna post people's hands in another message soon. **UNPLEASANT SIDE EFFECT** Proposals 1901 and 1902 taken together turn out to remove *all* copies of YSHTMF and Petty Theft from the deck. This is because 1902 reduces the number of both by simply removing a bunch of copies from the deck; 1901 does the more sensible thing of giving the number that should be left. End result: 1901 cuts us back to 3 of each, and 1902 removes 5 YSHTMF and 8 Petty Theft. No more of either left now. Proposal 1903/0 Let em do eir job! (Wonko) AFF: Phil, BeeDee, PlayerIain SHL: Norinel Counts (Y/N/A/S) : (3-0-0-1). Measure Passes. Wonko gains 16 points, +10 for a haiku. Created 1583/3. Proposal 1904/0 A Minister of Proposals (Wonko) AFF: Norinel, Phil, BeeDee, PlayerIain Counts (Y/N/A/S) : (4-0-0-0). Measure Passes. Wonko gains 14 points. Created r625/30. Proposal 1905/0 A Minister Of Cards (Wonko) AFF: Norinel, Phil, BeeDee, PlayerIain Counts (Y/N/A/S) : (4-0-0-0). Measure Passes. Wonko gains 10 points. Created r625/31. -- Wonko From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Wed Sep 15 14:50:51 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:50:51 -0400 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Actions Message-ID: <41A5D80A-071E-11D9-AC2E-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Ok, time to break in some of the new equipment. I play Smooth Hands, causing me to become the First Hand-Job Master of B Nomic. I post a Coil: {{ __Cards: General interface__ Bonus: 50 points Description: The program must come in the form of something I can easily put on the website, i.e., a php page, a cgi script, a MoinMoin macro, etc. It will be responsible for being an interface for players to move cards around themselves. It must be able to do the following things: 1. It stores information (name, body, image, etc.) about each existing card, in whatever format it wants (MySQL, etc. can be arranged; tell me what you need) 2. It stores a list of 'card regions' where cards can be, and knows which cards are in which regions (examples of regions would include 'The Deck', "Wonko's Hand", and 'Waiting') 3. It provides a means of viewing, through a webpage, all of the above information 4. It provides pages that allow a person to move specific cards from one region to another 5. It provides pages that allow a person to move a random card from one region to another 6. It makes it easy to add new regions and cards, and also to destroy old ones. Other things are not necessary, but would be nice: * The ability to perform any of those changes repeatedly (for example, if I could transfer random cards from one region (like the Deck) to many other regions at once (like all players' hands) * Authentication stuff. If this is done as a MoinMoin macro, then authentication is done by the wiki itself and you can use the full power of MoinMoin's login system; if this is done as anything else, it is up to you what sort of security you use. If you don't prohibit non-players from altering the data, then I'll probably just slap a .htaccess password protection on a page and give all the players a password to edit things. * Standard buttons for common requests, for example, a 'Draw' button that moves a card at random from the region called 'The Deck' to whatever region you're currently viewing, and a 'play' button that moves a card from a hand to the Deck (or maybe to a 'pending plays' region, so we can decide if it goes into play or into the deck?) * Support for cards changing what they are and remembering their history somehow. For example, something that would let us implement The Plague. * Any other fun features you can think of. There's no time limit, but if you want complicated card things like The Plague somebody will have to fill this first, 'cause I sure don't have time to build support for that. }} Finally, I note that the FCC is a ministry and has been Free for the past nweek. Thus, I call an Election for every free Ministry (Change, Cards, FCC, and any I might've missed), using Instant Runoff Voting, and in doing so fulfill the Election Duty. The Duty now ceases to require attention, and I get 20 points. Except that the FCC is still a ministry, and has still been Free for the past nweek, and is still Free (it will be until the election finishes). So the Election now Requires Attention again. Thus, I call an Election on every free Ministry, again using IRV. I get 20 more points. And oh, hey, it's free again. Since we did away with the speed limit a while ago, and since y'all were kind enough to vote for my prop to remove the only obstacle to my doing this, I now repeat the act of calling elections on all free ministries 50 times. At twenty points per fulfillment, this shoots me past the 1000-pt mark. I Win. Oh, and I nominate myself for all free ministries, but only in the final election - the other one's won't matter, as whoever wins the last one will supplant any earlier winners. -- Wonko In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion. -Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP Keynote Address From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Wed Sep 15 15:46:21 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Araltaln) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:46:21 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Third In-Reply-To: <41A5D80A-071E-11D9-AC2E-000A95842464@cornell.edu> References: <41A5D80A-071E-11D9-AC2E-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <725382fc04091507466145b705@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 09:50:51 -0400, Daniel Lepage wrote: > Finally, I note that the FCC is a ministry and has been Free for the > past nweek. Thus, I call an Election for every free Ministry (Change, > Cards, FCC, and any I might've missed), using Instant Runoff Voting, > and in doing so fulfill the Election Duty. The Duty now ceases to > require attention, and I get 20 points. > > Except that the FCC is still a ministry, and has still been Free for > the past nweek, and is still Free (it will be until the election > finishes). So the Election now Requires Attention again. Thus, I call > an Election on every free Ministry, again using IRV. I get 20 more > points. Newton's Third Law 15 9 2004 Araltaln Wonko Wonko failed to fulfill the Election Duty on his second attempt and all attempts thereafter. The Election Duty requires that an Election be called on every Open Ministry--however, Elections cannot be started on Ministries which already have Elections running. Therefore, Wonko could not complete the Game Actions necessary to complete this Duty. Note: I can't assign a Judge at random without being able to see a list of those persons in the Upper House. And, to my knowledge, the only such list is on the Wiki. *sighs* I will at least take care of part of my duties, though: http://www.geocities.com/araltaln/cfi.txt --Araltaln From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Wed Sep 15 16:01:50 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Bryan Donlan) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 11:01:50 -0400 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Actions and whatnot Message-ID: <3e83404904091508016be9224d@mail.gmail.com> I nominate myself for the FCC, and play Stock Crash. -- bd From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Wed Sep 15 17:56:41 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Iain Scott) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 17:56:41 +0100 Subject: [BNomic-Public] [P-Go] Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20040915175301.03821010@mail.free-online.net> I _think_ the following (as posted by Zarpint) was the last PGo move... >A B C D E F G H I J K L M > .---------------------------. >13| . . . . . . . . . . . . . |13 >12| . . . . . . . . . . . . . |12 >11| . . . o . Z . . Z . . . . |11 >10| . . . . . . . . . . Z . . |10 > 9| . . . . . . . . . . . . . |9 > 8| . . S . . . . . . . . . . |8 > 7| . . . . . . I . . . . . . |7 > 6| . . B . . . . . I . I . . |6 > 5| . . . . . . . . . . . . . |5 > 4| . . . . . . . . . P . . . |4 > 3| . . B . . . a . . . . . . |3 > 2| . . . . . . . . . . . . . |2 > 1| . . . . . . . . . . . . . |1 > '---------------------------' > A B C D E F G H I J K L M Hence I place a stone at I9 A B C D E F G H I J K L M .---------------------------. 13| . . . . . . . . . . . . . |13 12| . . . . . . . . . . . . . |12 11| . . . o . Z . . Z . . . . |11 10| . . . . . . . . . . Z . . |10 9| . . . . . . . . I . . . . |9 8| . . S . . . . . . . . . . |8 7| . . . . . . I . . . . . . |7 6| . . B . . . . . I . I . . |6 5| . . . . . . . . . . . . . |5 4| . . . . . . . . . P . . . |4 3| . . B . . . a . . . . . . |3 2| . . . . . . . . . . . . . |2 1| . . . . . . . . . . . . . |1 '---------------------------' A B C D E F G H I J K L M [I] Iain 0 Points No alliances [Z] Zarpint 0 Points No alliances [B] bd 0 Points No alliances [P] Phil 0 Points No alliances [S] SkArcher 0 Points No alliances [o] Rob 0 Points No alliances [a] Araltaln 0 Points No alliances cheers, Iain From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Wed Sep 15 18:11:11 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Phil Ulrich) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 13:11:11 -0400 Subject: [BNomic-Public] [P-Go] In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.1.20040915175301.03821010@mail.free-online.net> References: <5.1.1.6.1.20040915175301.03821010@mail.free-online.net> Message-ID: <414877AF.4000409@interalia.org> Well, looks like I missed a few things. For shame. I place a stone at J-1. A B C D E F G H I J K L M .---------------------------. 13| . . . . . . . . . . . . . |13 12| . . . . . . . . . . . . . |12 11| . . . o . Z . . Z . . . . |11 10| . . . . . . . . . . Z . . |10 9| . . . . . . . . I . . . . |9 8| . . S . . . . . . . . . . |8 7| . . . . . . I . . . . . . |7 6| . . B . . . . . I . I . . |6 5| . . . . . . . . . . . . . |5 4| . . . . . . . . . P . . . |4 3| . . B . . . a . . . . . . |3 2| . . . . . . . . . . . . . |2 1| . . . . . . . . . P . . . |1 '---------------------------' A B C D E F G H I J K L M [I] Iain 0 Points No alliances [Z] Zarpint 0 Points No alliances [B] bd 0 Points No alliances [P] Phil 0 Points No alliances [S] SkArcher 0 Points No alliances [o] Rob 0 Points No alliances [a] Araltaln 0 Points No alliances I also draw a card. Yay cards. --Phil Iain Scott wrote: > I _think_ the following (as posted by Zarpint) was the last PGo move... > >> A B C D E F G H I J K L M >> .---------------------------. >> 13| . . . . . . . . . . . . . |13 >> 12| . . . . . . . . . . . . . |12 >> 11| . . . o . Z . . Z . . . . |11 >> 10| . . . . . . . . . . Z . . |10 >> 9| . . . . . . . . . . . . . |9 >> 8| . . S . . . . . . . . . . |8 >> 7| . . . . . . I . . . . . . |7 >> 6| . . B . . . . . I . I . . |6 >> 5| . . . . . . . . . . . . . |5 >> 4| . . . . . . . . . P . . . |4 >> 3| . . B . . . a . . . . . . |3 >> 2| . . . . . . . . . . . . . |2 >> 1| . . . . . . . . . . . . . |1 >> '---------------------------' >> A B C D E F G H I J K L M > > > Hence I place a stone at I9 > > A B C D E F G H I J K L M > .---------------------------. > 13| . . . . . . . . . . . . . |13 > 12| . . . . . . . . . . . . . |12 > 11| . . . o . Z . . Z . . . . |11 > 10| . . . . . . . . . . Z . . |10 > 9| . . . . . . . . I . . . . |9 > 8| . . S . . . . . . . . . . |8 > 7| . . . . . . I . . . . . . |7 > 6| . . B . . . . . I . I . . |6 > 5| . . . . . . . . . . . . . |5 > 4| . . . . . . . . . P . . . |4 > 3| . . B . . . a . . . . . . |3 > 2| . . . . . . . . . . . . . |2 > 1| . . . . . . . . . . . . . |1 > '---------------------------' > A B C D E F G H I J K L M > [I] Iain 0 Points No alliances > [Z] Zarpint 0 Points No alliances > [B] bd 0 Points No alliances > [P] Phil 0 Points No alliances > [S] SkArcher 0 Points No alliances > [o] Rob 0 Points No alliances > [a] Araltaln 0 Points No alliances > > cheers, > Iain > > > _______________________________________________ > BNomic-Public mailing list > BNomic-Public@ysolde.ucam.org > http://www.ysolde.ucam.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/bnomic-public From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Wed Sep 15 21:55:20 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 16:55:20 -0400 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Third In-Reply-To: <725382fc04091507466145b705@mail.gmail.com> References: <41A5D80A-071E-11D9-AC2E-000A95842464@cornell.edu> <725382fc04091507466145b705@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8E6FEA42-0759-11D9-83ED-000A95842464@cornell.edu> On Sep 15, 2004, at 10.46 AM, Araltaln wrote: > > Newton's Third Law > > 15 > 9 > 2004 > > Araltaln > Wonko > Wonko failed to fulfill the Election Duty on his second > attempt and all attempts thereafter. > The Election Duty requires that an Election be called on > every Open Ministry--however, Elections cannot be started on > Ministries which already have Elections running. Therefore, Wonko > could not complete the Game Actions necessary to complete this Duty. > > > > Note: I can't assign a Judge at random without being able to see a > list of those persons in the Upper House. And, to my knowledge, the > only such list is on the Wiki. http://www.bnomic.org/wiki/ stores the list as it was a few nweeks ago; if it hasn't changed much, then you can use this. I also wish to submit my own analysis: To understand why my actions are legal, look at r1583 [[Duties]]. Section A.1 of this rule states "When a Duty Requires Attention, any player who is not otherwise barred from performing that Duty may perform it." Look also at section C.2, which includes: "It shall be the responsibility of the Player carrying out the Duty to call an Election for all Free Ministries." These two sentences taken together indicate that when the Election Duty requires attention, any player who is not forbidden from calling an Election on all Free Ministries may do so. The Plaintiff's argument revolves around the claim that the rules make it illegal to call an Election for a Ministry if an Election is already in progress for that Ministry; however, this claim is not supported by the rules. It is my belief that the plaintiff was confused by r625.B, which states "Any player may start an Election for any Open Ministry as a Game Action, provided that the Ministry has been Open for at least five ndays and there is not already an Election in progress for that Ministry". This clause has no bearing on my actions: although it gives one set of circumstances under which an election may be called, it does not state or imply that calling an election is illegal under all other circumstances. Thus, it does not forbid be from calling elections as per rule 1583. Note: The following past precedents relate to this case: 1) Past use of ministries and deputies confirms that when the rules state "player X is responsible for doing Y", it is implicit in this that player X is empowered to do Y (indeed, some Ministries, and my own deputyship and thus the game, would be rendered completely nonfunctional under the current rules were this otherwise). 2) Former CFIs have supported the interpretation that a rule saying "players may do X if Y is true" should not be interpreted to forbid players from doing X when Y is false when another rule allows X to be done. -- Wonko From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Thu Sep 16 04:31:11 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Jeremy Cook) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 04:31:11 +0100 Subject: [Bnomic-private] Re: [BNomic-Public] Actions In-Reply-To: <3D45A987-0789-11D9-B954-000A95842464@cornell.edu>; from dpl33@cornell.edu on Wed, Sep 15, 2004 at 10:36:40PM -0400 References: <69088102-076C-11D9-8339-000A958069F6@aftran.com> <3D45A987-0789-11D9-B954-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <20040916043111.A6751@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> I'm glad we're getting back to this, but there's not much we can do without the Wiki. I can't update the Roster, because it's on the Wiki. The list archives aren't up either, so I'd miss all the stuff that happened a few weeks ago. But since Wonko Won, all points are destroyed, so the following is a temporary Roster: All players have 0 points. Oh, and I notice we don't have the circuit breaker either. I call an election for the FCC 50,000,000,000 times. I Win 1,000,000,000 times. And it's not clear to me that only the last election matters. They all began on the same nday, so they all end at the same time. I don't know what to make of that. What nday is it, by the way? Zarpint From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Thu Sep 16 13:18:48 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Araltaln) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 07:18:48 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Third In-Reply-To: <8E6FEA42-0759-11D9-83ED-000A95842464@cornell.edu> References: <41A5D80A-071E-11D9-AC2E-000A95842464@cornell.edu> <725382fc04091507466145b705@mail.gmail.com> <8E6FEA42-0759-11D9-83ED-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <725382fc040916051834ff23dd@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 16:55:20 -0400, Daniel Lepage wrote: > > On Sep 15, 2004, at 10.46 AM, Araltaln wrote: > > Note: I can't assign a Judge at random without being able to see a > > list of those persons in the Upper House. And, to my knowledge, the > > only such list is on the Wiki. > > http://www.bnomic.org/wiki/ stores the list as it was a few nweeks ago; > if it hasn't changed much, then you can use this. Er. I continue to fail to assign a Judge to the yet-to-be-numbered CFI previously submitted. And I declare my intent to enter the Upper House. > Note: The following past precedents relate to this case: > 1) Past use of ministries and deputies confirms that when the rules > state "player X is responsible for doing Y", it is implicit in this > that player X is empowered to do Y (indeed, some Ministries, and my own > deputyship and thus the game, would be rendered completely > nonfunctional under the current rules were this otherwise). Would you provide an example of a responsibility that requires one or more actions that alter the game's state whose powers have not been granted somewhere, besides this one, please? You are specifically empowered, not just given responsibility, as a Deputy, and nearly all current Ministries only require the maintaining of displays about the game state, without actually changing the game state. You have in some cases granted additional responsibilities to players (I'm an example, even if I can't do what I'm supposed to do right now), but by making them limited Deputies still, which still specifies empowerment. > 2) Former CFIs have supported the interpretation that a rule saying > "players may do X if Y is true" should not be interpreted to forbid > players from doing X when Y is false when another rule allows X to be > done. True. However, 1583 is not granting you the right to call an Election (nor is any other rule after your first iteration), and so 393 forbids it (it changes the game state to do so). Is this the wrong time to point out that the Ministries rule as it currently stands is in direct violation of Rule 497? --Araltaln From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Thu Sep 16 15:34:41 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Jeremy Cook) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 15:34:41 +0100 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Third In-Reply-To: <725382fc040916051834ff23dd@mail.gmail.com>; from araltaln@gmail.com on Thu, Sep 16, 2004 at 07:18:48AM -0500 References: <41A5D80A-071E-11D9-AC2E-000A95842464@cornell.edu> <725382fc04091507466145b705@mail.gmail.com> <8E6FEA42-0759-11D9-83ED-000A95842464@cornell.edu> <725382fc040916051834ff23dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040916153441.A16404@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> On Thu, Sep 16, 2004 at 07:18:48AM -0500, Araltaln wrote: > True. However, 1583 is not granting you the right to call an Election > (nor is any other rule after your first iteration), and so 393 forbids > it (it changes the game state to do so). Yes, r1583 does grant that right. A.1. Duties may come to Require Attention as laid down in the rules. When a Duty Requires Attention, any player who is not otherwise barred from performing that Duty may perform it. A Player who performs a Duty shall receive the reward specified for that Duty, which shall be refered to as a Perk. The Duty shall then cease to Require Attention. C.2. The Election Duty The Election Duty shall Require Attention whenever a Ministry has been Free for at least five ndays in any one nweek. It shall be the responsibility of the Player carrying out the Duty to call an Election for all Free Ministries. The Perk for performing the Election Duty shall be 20 points. >From C2, performing the duty consists of calling an Election. The Duty Requires Attention. So from A1, any player may perform it. > > Is this the wrong time to point out that the Ministries rule as it > currently stands is in direct violation of Rule 497? You mean the X? Well, I'd think that if a rule is organized "into subsections", every sentence of the rule would be part of some subsection, so the Ministries rule isn't the only one violating r497. Platonically, the X isn't there at all. It's just a typo for 'B'. Zarpint From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Thu Sep 16 16:01:48 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 11:01:48 -0400 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Third In-Reply-To: <725382fc040916051834ff23dd@mail.gmail.com> References: <41A5D80A-071E-11D9-AC2E-000A95842464@cornell.edu> <725382fc04091507466145b705@mail.gmail.com> <8E6FEA42-0759-11D9-83ED-000A95842464@cornell.edu> <725382fc040916051834ff23dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <551D8CBA-07F1-11D9-8027-000A95842464@cornell.edu> On Sep 16, 2004, at 8.18 AM, Araltaln wrote: > On Wed, 15 Sep 2004 16:55:20 -0400, Daniel Lepage > wrote: >> >> On Sep 15, 2004, at 10.46 AM, Araltaln wrote: >>> Note: I can't assign a Judge at random without being able to see a >>> list of those persons in the Upper House. And, to my knowledge, the >>> only such list is on the Wiki. >> >> http://www.bnomic.org/wiki/ stores the list as it was a few nweeks >> ago; >> if it hasn't changed much, then you can use this. > > Er. I continue to fail to assign a Judge to the yet-to-be-numbered CFI > previously submitted. And I declare my intent to enter the Upper > House. > >> Note: The following past precedents relate to this case: >> 1) Past use of ministries and deputies confirms that when the rules >> state "player X is responsible for doing Y", it is implicit in this >> that player X is empowered to do Y (indeed, some Ministries, and my >> own >> deputyship and thus the game, would be rendered completely >> nonfunctional under the current rules were this otherwise). > > Would you provide an example of a responsibility that requires one or > more actions that alter the game's state whose powers have not been > granted somewhere, besides this one, please? You are specifically > empowered, not just given responsibility, as a Deputy, and nearly all > current Ministries only require the maintaining of displays about the > game state, without actually changing the game state. You have in some > cases granted additional responsibilities to players (I'm an example, > even if I can't do what I'm supposed to do right now), but by making > them limited Deputies still, which still specifies empowerment. One example would be the Societies fiasco, when a rule said that societies could require players to do things and it was judged that this empowered those players to do whatever the society required them to do. There were a bunch of CFIs about this, and lots of arguing and attempted scams. Those were the days. Anyway, my argument holds up even if you don't believe this point, as 1583.A.1 says I can perform the duty, and performing the duty requires that I call elections for all free ministries. >> 2) Former CFIs have supported the interpretation that a rule saying >> "players may do X if Y is true" should not be interpreted to forbid >> players from doing X when Y is false when another rule allows X to be >> done. > > True. However, 1583 is not granting you the right to call an Election > (nor is any other rule after your first iteration), and so 393 forbids > it (it changes the game state to do so). As was previously mentioned, r1583.A.1 explicitly permits me to do what I have to to perform a duty. > Is this the wrong time to point out that the Ministries rule as it > currently stands is in direct violation of Rule 497? No it's not. Rule 497 is another one of those rules that describes a method for doing something without specifying that that's the only way to do it. Some rules are divided into what r497 calls 'subsections'; others simply have letters, numbers, and other such things inserted to make the rule more readable. These are also 'subsections', they're just subsections under the standard english definition, not under the definition given by the rules (which, it would seem, is a different word). -- Wonko Honesty is for the most part less profitable than dishonesty. -- Plato From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Thu Sep 16 17:05:37 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Thu, 16 Sep 2004 12:05:37 -0400 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Upper House Message-ID: <3FA832B1-07FA-11D9-8027-000A95842464@cornell.edu> I hereby declare my intention to join the Upper House. -- Wonko I don't know anything about music. In my line you don't have to. - Elvis Presley From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sat Sep 18 20:10:31 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 15:10:31 -0400 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Checkpointly Recognizer Message-ID: <692B2DBD-09A6-11D9-BDFB-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Wonko played Smooth Hands, becoming the Hand Job Master. E also posts a coil and Wins, and the Win gets CFI'd, and bd nominates emself for FCC, but I don't have to do anything about that. w00t. bd plays Stock Crash. Araltaln discards Jackpot! bd discards two Investments. Iain discards Cash In. Norinel discards Investment. Phil discards Investment and Cash In. Scoff! discards Capitalist. Teucer discards Cash In. TPR discards Cash In. theta discards Jackpot! More CFI stuff, some PGo stuff, some winning stuff, some Upper House stuff. Not my business. The clock starts again. It's nweek 69, nday 4. However, I'm gonna toss out a 1-day Writ of Delay, on the grounds that I don't want to get to voting until we have the server back. So nday 4 will continue through the end of tomorrow. I encourage people to, y'know, propose things 'n stuff. -- Wonko Your food stamps will be stopped effective March 1992 because we received notice that you passed away. May God bless you. You may reapply if there is a change in your circumstances. ---Department of Social Services, Greenville, South Carolina From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sat Sep 18 20:50:28 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Norinel) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 15:50:28 -0400 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Checkpointly Recognizer In-Reply-To: <692B2DBD-09A6-11D9-BDFB-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Message-ID: On Saturday, September 18, 2004, at 03:10 PM, Daniel Lepage wrote: > I encourage people to, y'know, propose things 'n stuff. Here, right? And there are no other proposals, right? Anyway, I'll propose this: {{ __The Ugly Patch__ Replace the third sentence of r1583.A.1 with {{A Player who performs a Duty shall receive the reward specified for that Duty, which shall be referred to as a Perk, unless that player has already performed that same Duty within the previous two nweeks or joined the game within the previous two nweeks.}} Replace the first sentence of r1583.D.1 with {{The Duty Duty shall Require Attention whenever a Duty has been Requiring Attention for 3 nweeks and no Player has performed that Duty or performed the Duty Duty with regards to that Duty within the last nweek.}} [[Because I don't see anything that says it wouldn't immediately Require Attention again once it was performed.]] Replace the first sentence of r1583.D.2 with {{The Election Duty shall Require Attention whenever a Ministry has been Free for at least five ndays in any one nweek and there is not already an Election in progress for that ministry.}} }} -Norinel From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sat Sep 18 21:04:43 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Jeremy Cook) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 21:04:43 +0100 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Checkpointly Recognizer In-Reply-To: <692B2DBD-09A6-11D9-BDFB-000A95842464@cornell.edu>; from dpl33@cornell.edu on Sat, Sep 18, 2004 at 03:10:31PM -0400 References: <692B2DBD-09A6-11D9-BDFB-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <20040918210443.A23979@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> On Sat, Sep 18, 2004 at 03:10:31PM -0400, Daniel Lepage wrote: > E also posts a coil and Wins, and the Win gets CFI'd, and bd nominates > emself for FCC, but I don't have to do anything about that. w00t. I do have to deal with this mess. As Godel, I am ignoring any election results until we fix the hole Wonko exploited, since the rules are not precisely defined enough to make any of this meaningful. To fix it, I propose the following: {{__Dutifully__ Add the following to the Ruleset as r1583.A.4: "If a Duty consists of performing one or more Actions, merely performing those Actions is not performing the Duty unless the entity performing the Actions states explicitly that e is performing the Duty. No player may perform a Duty more than once an nweek. To perform a Duty, a player must be able to perform the Actions it consists of regardless of whether or not e is performing the Duty." Make the following Ministries unoccupied: FCC, Change, and Cards. Call an election for all unoccupied Ministries with Godel as the Moderator and Approval Voting as the Selection Method. }} > > bd plays Stock Crash. > Araltaln discards Jackpot! > bd discards two Investments. > Iain discards Cash In. > Norinel discards Investment. > Phil discards Investment and Cash In. > Scoff! discards Capitalist. > Teucer discards Cash In. > TPR discards Cash In. > theta discards Jackpot! > > More CFI stuff, some PGo stuff, some winning stuff, some Upper House > stuff. Not my business. I will wait to deal with any of this that's my business until I have the records I need. We need some way to deal with Wins, so I propose the following: {{__Respect, again__ Add the following to the Ruleset as r21.A.3: "A.3 Respect Players may possess Respect in units of Franklins. After a Player Wins, e receives 1 Franklin. It is the responsibility of the Minister of the Roster to keep track of the Franklins each Player has." Add the following to the end of r27: "When a Player is awarded a Win in this fashion, Deactivate this Rule." [[That way, when we prop to fix a scam, we can manually reactivate r27 when we're ready.]] }} Zarpint From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sat Sep 18 21:17:10 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Norinel) Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 16:17:10 -0400 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Checkpointly Recognizer In-Reply-To: <20040918210443.A23979@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> Message-ID: Stupid simulposting proposal. Zarpint's is better, so I revise The Ugly Patch to say: {{ __The Ugly Patch__ Shelve this proposal. [[In case I come up with something better to do with it.]] }} -Norinel From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Sep 19 07:00:44 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 02:00:44 -0400 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Checkpointly Recognizer In-Reply-To: <20040918210443.A23979@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> References: <692B2DBD-09A6-11D9-BDFB-000A95842464@cornell.edu> <20040918210443.A23979@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> Message-ID: <3E8B5931-0A01-11D9-95C8-000A95842464@cornell.edu> On Sep 18, 2004, at 4.04 PM, Jeremy Cook wrote: > I do have to deal with this mess. As Godel, I am ignoring any election > results until we fix the hole Wonko exploited, since the rules are not > precisely defined enough to make any of this meaningful. I disagree. While the rules don't say exactly how we should deal with this, I don't think this paralyzes us. I assert the following things: 1) Elections with no candidates don't select anyone. Rationale: They can't select anyone, so they won't. 2) Events triggered "in order simultaneously" will happen the same way. Rationale: The rules don't say that they won't, so it's really up to us. We can agree that this is the way to do it, or somebody can dissent and CFI it and we'll let a judge decide. Except we don't have judges, so we'll end up going with this method anyway - it's just as consistent with the rules as any other resolution method would be. 3) Multiple elections returning the same results will have the same effect as one election returning those results. Rationale: The results of the election make a gamestate change that isn't based on the current state of the game, so regardless of whether you apply the same 'set the gamestate' action four times in a row or all at once, you'll get the same gamestate. 4) If you agree with 1), 2), or 3), then the elections can be done properly. If we assume that everyone who nominates themselves implicitly nominates themselves for whichever election other people have been nominating themselves for, which happens to be the last one I called, then the results of that election will be the ones that happen. Of course, this interpretation does allow somebody to seize any of the open ministries by calling a new election and nominating themselves just when the old ones are about to resolve. But so what? If anyone's really that eager to get a ministry, then by all means go ahead. Fighting for control is half of what Nomic's all about. > To fix it, I propose the following: > > {{__Dutifully__ > > Add the following to the Ruleset as r1583.A.4: > > "If a Duty consists of performing one or more Actions, merely > performing > those Actions is not performing the Duty unless the entity performing > the Actions states explicitly that e is performing the Duty. No player > may perform a Duty more than once an nweek. To perform a Duty, a player > must be able to perform the Actions it consists of regardless of > whether > or not e is performing the Duty." > > Make the following Ministries unoccupied: FCC, Change, and Cards. > > Call an election for all unoccupied Ministries with Godel as the > Moderator and Approval Voting as the Selection Method. > }} I would rather see this done slightly differently: I think if the duty-filler has to do something, e should be implicitly empowered to do it as well. I also think that rather than stopping people from doing a duty more than once per nweek, it'd make more sense to stop them from getting paid for doing it more than once per nweek. Also, there's a redundant clause in the ministries rule allowing players to call elections. I would say either put it in the definition of your ministry, or make it a duty, but both is overkill. I might get around to propping something like this in a day or two. >> bd plays Stock Crash. >> Araltaln discards Jackpot! >> bd discards two Investments. >> Iain discards Cash In. >> Norinel discards Investment. >> Phil discards Investment and Cash In. >> Scoff! discards Capitalist. >> Teucer discards Cash In. >> TPR discards Cash In. >> theta discards Jackpot! >> >> More CFI stuff, some PGo stuff, some winning stuff, some Upper House >> stuff. Not my business. > > I will wait to deal with any of this that's my business until I have > the > records I need. Which records, exactly? If you want to know who's in the upper house, I believe nobody is. Judging by my email records (I have just over a year's worth), the Upper House as it currently exists was created by p1891 at the end of nweek 67. I didn't have the foresight to include in this prop a clause putting some people in the Upper House, so nobody's an eligible judge right now. > We need some way to deal with Wins, so I propose the following: > > {{__Respect, again__ > > Add the following to the Ruleset as r21.A.3: > > "A.3 Respect > > Players may possess Respect in units of Franklins. After a Player Wins, > e receives 1 Franklin. It is the responsibility of the Minister of the > Roster to keep track of the Franklins each Player has." I'd measure it in Millidaves - one win entitles you to about a thousandth of the respect owed Dave for making and sustaining this game. > Add the following to the end of r27: > > "When a Player is awarded a Win in this fashion, Deactivate this Rule." From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Sep 19 07:10:41 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 02:10:41 -0400 Subject: [BNomic-Public] More Actions Message-ID: I play Greater Booty, choosing myself as Hand Job Master, 'cause I am. Then I get to choose a Target; in this case, I choose Norinel. Mr. Dice Roller says I get Rotary Exchange from Norinel. -- Wonko "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." -Plato From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Sep 19 07:12:10 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 02:12:10 -0400 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Cards Report Message-ID: Here are your hands. Do what you will. Remember, each nweek you either get 1 play per checkpoint or 1 draw for the nweek. Aquarion wields the following cards: Circular Theft RPS RPS Six Card Hand Araltaln wields the following cards: Card Shark Enclosing Game Rotary Exchange Syn Tax The Poor bd wields the following cards: Enclosing Game Greater Booby Poik Syn Gizmit wields the following cards: Enclosing Game Hamhandedness Poik Tax The Poor Tournament Russian Roulette Glotmorf wields the following cards: Flood Lesser Booty Luggage Mixup Poik Iain wields the following cards: Circular Theft Master Handiwork Poik RPS Norinel wields the following cards: Greater Booty Smooth Hands Tournament Russian Roulette Phil wields the following cards: Ack RPS Six Card Hand Syn/Ack Rob wields the following cards: Guru Lesser Booty Poik Six Card Hand Tournament Russian Roulette Sagitta wields the following cards: Ack Hamhandedness Hamhandedness Luggage Mixup Scoff! wields the following cards: Greater Booby Luggage Mixup RPS SkArcher wields the following cards: Nak Rotary Exchange RPS Syn Teucer wields the following cards: Flood Syn/Ack Tournament Russian Roulette The Pusher Robot wields the following cards: Ack Flood Flood Luggage Mixup The Voice wields the following cards: Handyman Nak Poik theta wields the following cards: EOT Poik Wonko wields the following cards: Rotary Exchange RPS RPS Zarpint wields the following cards: Enclosing Game Enclosing Game Poik -- Wonko "What is improbable is extremely probable." - Aristotle From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Sep 19 15:44:43 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Araltaln) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 09:44:43 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Checkpointly Recognizer In-Reply-To: <3E8B5931-0A01-11D9-95C8-000A95842464@cornell.edu> References: <692B2DBD-09A6-11D9-BDFB-000A95842464@cornell.edu> <20040918210443.A23979@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> <3E8B5931-0A01-11D9-95C8-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <725382fc0409190744770f395a@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 02:00:44 -0400, Daniel Lepage wrote: > I would rather see this done slightly differently: I think if the > duty-filler has to do something, e should be implicitly empowered to do > it as well. I also think that rather than stopping people from doing a > duty more than once per nweek, it'd make more sense to stop them from > getting paid for doing it more than once per nweek. Explicitly empowered, please--you've seen the headaches new players can try to cause when they run up against things that aren't spelled out but all the oldbies understand. > Which records, exactly? If you want to know who's in the upper house, I > believe nobody is. Judging by my email records (I have just over a > year's worth), the Upper House as it currently exists was created by > p1891 at the end of nweek 67. I didn't have the foresight to include in > this prop a clause putting some people in the Upper House, so nobody's > an eligible judge right now. In any event, the Roster ceased recognizing the existence of the Upper House, let alone the fact that it had members, before the latest revisions to CFIs--even if it's not considered to have been recreated, unless someone with the power to do so'd like to declare otherwise (and furnish a list of the current members of the Upper House :P), it's empty until the end of the nweek. As Attorney Generalist I'd also like to point out that if I still don't have any Eligible Judges for my CFI at the start of next nweek I may be forced to do something drastic. And if my CFI remains unnumbered until the next Checkpoint, I'll be very unhappy. (Could someone remind me if I'm supposed to be doing this in general? I /can't/ in this case I know, Rule 5. "Identification numbers for Calls for Judgment cannot be specified by the Players creating them." [Plus I could argue, if I am Deputized to handle that, that that information should've been on the Roster, and the Roster hasn't had that either, except I imagine Wonko would rather quickly point out that e prevented the effect without telling us.]) --Araltaln From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Sep 19 17:06:43 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Norinel) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:06:43 -0400 Subject: [BNomic-Public] More Actions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I play Smooth Hands. Where is it be written down who has HJM? -Norinel From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Sep 19 17:16:32 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Araltaln) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 11:16:32 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] More Actions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <725382fc040919091639d9cd24@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:06:43 -0400, Norinel wrote: > I play Smooth Hands. Where is it be written down who has HJM? It's a Roster job, as far as I can tell, although someone might consider propping to add it to Cards. And I'll be boring and draw a card. --Araltaln From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Sep 19 19:07:08 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Jeremy Cook) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:07:08 +0100 Subject: [BNomic-Public] More Actions In-Reply-To: <725382fc040919091639d9cd24@mail.gmail.com>; from araltaln@gmail.com on Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 11:16:32AM -0500 References: <725382fc040919091639d9cd24@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040919190708.A15669@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 11:16:32AM -0500, Araltaln wrote: > On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:06:43 -0400, Norinel wrote: > > I play Smooth Hands. Where is it be written down who has HJM? > > It's a Roster job, as far as I can tell, although someone might > consider propping to add it to Cards. Wonko's mom is a Hand Job Master. :p As far as I can tell, no one is. In order to play Greater Booty, Wonko had to have it and then lose it. When did e get it? Zarpint From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Sep 19 19:23:18 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Jeremy Cook) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:23:18 +0100 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Checkpointly Recognizer In-Reply-To: <725382fc0409190744770f395a@mail.gmail.com>; from araltaln@gmail.com on Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 09:44:43AM -0500 References: <692B2DBD-09A6-11D9-BDFB-000A95842464@cornell.edu> <20040918210443.A23979@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> <3E8B5931-0A01-11D9-95C8-000A95842464@cornell.edu> <725382fc0409190744770f395a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20040919192318.B15669@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 09:44:43AM -0500, Araltaln wrote: > On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 02:00:44 -0400, Daniel Lepage wrote: > > I would rather see this done slightly differently: I think if the > > duty-filler has to do something, e should be implicitly empowered to do > > it as well. I also think that rather than stopping people from doing a > > duty more than once per nweek, it'd make more sense to stop them from > > getting paid for doing it more than once per nweek. > > Explicitly empowered, please--you've seen the headaches new players > can try to cause when they run up against things that aren't spelled > out but all the oldbies understand. > Yes, definitely. The whole point of Dutifully was to remove the implicit granting of Powers that Duties seem to give Players. We should allow for explicitly empowering, though. I change "Dutifully" to the following: {{__Dutifully__ Add the following to the Ruleset as r1583.A.4: "If a Duty consists of performing one or more Actions, merely performing those Actions is not performing the Duty unless the entity performing the Actions states explicitly that e is performing the Duty. No player may perform a Duty more than once an nweek. To perform a Duty, a player must be able to perform the Actions it consists of regardless of whether or not e is performing the Duty, unless the Duty explicitly empowers Players to perform Actions." Call an election for all unoccupied Ministries with Godel as the Moderator and Approval Voting as the Selection Method. }} There's no duplication between the Minister rule and the Duties rule: the Minister rule allows players to call elections, and the Duty rule states that those actions can be done as a Duty under certain circumstances. Wonko, if you want to go ahead with the elections you called during this week, all right. You're the Moderator, since you called them. > > Which records, exactly? If you want to know who's in the upper house, I > > believe nobody is. Judging by my email records (I have just over a > > year's worth), the Upper House as it currently exists was created by > > p1891 at the end of nweek 67. I didn't have the foresight to include in > > this prop a clause putting some people in the Upper House, so nobody's > > an eligible judge right now. The records I was referring to are the spoon-business archives since I last updated the Roster. My email records are long gone. > In any event, the Roster ceased recognizing the existence of the Upper > House, let alone the fact that it had members, before the latest > revisions to CFIs--even if it's not considered to have been recreated, > unless someone with the power to do so'd like to declare otherwise > (and furnish a list of the current members of the Upper House :P), > it's empty until the end of the nweek. As Attorney Generalist I'd also > like to point out that if I still don't have any Eligible Judges for > my CFI at the start of next nweek I may be forced to do something > drastic. And if my CFI remains unnumbered until the next Checkpoint, > I'll be very unhappy. (Could someone remind me if I'm supposed to be > doing this in general? I /can't/ in this case I know, Rule 5. > "Identification numbers for Calls for Judgment cannot be specified by > the Players creating them." [Plus I could argue, if I am Deputized to > handle that, that that information should've been on the Roster, and > the Roster hasn't had that either, except I imagine Wonko would rather > quickly point out that e prevented the effect without telling us.]) Wonko is supposed to number them, as the Deputy Admin. (r5) I declare my intention to enter the Upper House. Araltaln, Wonko, and I will join at the end of the nweek. Zarpint From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Sep 19 19:58:04 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Norinel) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:58:04 -0400 Subject: [BNomic-Public] More Actions In-Reply-To: <20040919190708.A15669@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> Message-ID: On Sunday, September 19, 2004, at 02:07 PM, Jeremy Cook wrote: > As far as I can tell, no one is. In order to play Greater Booty, Wonko > had to have it and then lose it. When did e get it? Wonko played Smooth Hands in the last Checking Period. If nobody is, then I am now, since I just played Smooth Hands myself. > Zarpint -Norinel From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Sep 19 20:06:06 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Jeremy Cook) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:06:06 +0100 Subject: [BNomic-Public] More Actions In-Reply-To: ; from norinel@aftran.com on Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 02:58:04PM -0400 References: <20040919190708.A15669@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> Message-ID: <20040919200606.A15343@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 02:58:04PM -0400, Norinel wrote: > On Sunday, September 19, 2004, at 02:07 PM, Jeremy Cook wrote: > > > As far as I can tell, no one is. In order to play Greater Booty, Wonko > > had to have it and then lose it. When did e get it? > > Wonko played Smooth Hands in the last Checking Period. If nobody is, > then I am now, since I just played Smooth Hands myself. All right. The temporary Roster will be at http://dynamicwind.com/roster.html I don't even have a list of current players now. Wonko, do you have such a list? Zarpint From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Sep 19 23:27:33 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:27:33 -0400 Subject: [BNomic-Public] More Actions In-Reply-To: <20040919200606.A15343@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> References: <20040919190708.A15669@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> <20040919200606.A15343@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> Message-ID: <1A0C1452-0A8B-11D9-AE73-000A95842464@cornell.edu> On Sep 19, 2004, at 3.06 PM, Jeremy Cook wrote: > On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 02:58:04PM -0400, Norinel wrote: >> On Sunday, September 19, 2004, at 02:07 PM, Jeremy Cook wrote: >> >>> As far as I can tell, no one is. In order to play Greater Booty, >>> Wonko >>> had to have it and then lose it. When did e get it? >> >> Wonko played Smooth Hands in the last Checking Period. If nobody is, >> then I am now, since I just played Smooth Hands myself. > > All right. The temporary Roster will be at > http://dynamicwind.com/roster.html > > I don't even have a list of current players now. Wonko, do you have > such > a list? http://www.bnomic.org/wiki/Roster -- WOnko From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Sep 19 23:30:28 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:30:28 -0400 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Checkpointly Recognizer In-Reply-To: <20040919192318.B15669@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> References: <692B2DBD-09A6-11D9-BDFB-000A95842464@cornell.edu> <20040918210443.A23979@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> <3E8B5931-0A01-11D9-95C8-000A95842464@cornell.edu> <725382fc0409190744770f395a@mail.gmail.com> <20040919192318.B15669@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> Message-ID: <823C861C-0A8B-11D9-AE73-000A95842464@cornell.edu> >> And if my CFI remains unnumbered until the next Checkpoint, >> I'll be very unhappy. (Could someone remind me if I'm supposed to be >> doing this in general? I /can't/ in this case I know, Rule 5. >> "Identification numbers for Calls for Judgment cannot be specified by >> the Players creating them." [Plus I could argue, if I am Deputized to >> handle that, that that information should've been on the Roster, and >> the Roster hasn't had that either, except I imagine Wonko would rather >> quickly point out that e prevented the effect without telling us.]) > > Wonko is supposed to number them, as the Deputy Admin. (r5) CFI's aren't revisable, so I don't think they officially get numbers. The Minister of Justice can decide what e wants to call them, I guess. -- Wonko From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Sun Sep 19 23:57:02 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Jeremy Cook) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 23:57:02 +0100 Subject: [BNomic-Public] More Actions In-Reply-To: <1A0C1452-0A8B-11D9-AE73-000A95842464@cornell.edu>; from dpl33@cornell.edu on Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 06:27:33PM -0400 References: <20040919190708.A15669@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> <20040919200606.A15343@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> <1A0C1452-0A8B-11D9-AE73-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <20040919235702.A3728@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 06:27:33PM -0400, Daniel Lepage wrote: > > On Sep 19, 2004, at 3.06 PM, Jeremy Cook wrote: > > I don't even have a list of current players now. Wonko, do you have > > such > > a list? > > http://www.bnomic.org/wiki/Roster Not only do you have a list, you have a Wiki! yay! *cheers* Zarpint From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Mon Sep 20 00:02:12 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:02:12 -0400 Subject: [BNomic-Public] The State of the Game Message-ID: Norinel plays Smooth Hands, becoming the Hand Job Master. Araltaln draws Cash In. "The Ugly Patch" is p1906. "Dutifully" is p1907. "Respect, Again" is p1908. Now, here's the state of the game, near as I can see. I've put this together from the info stored on the backup wiki (at least an nweek out of date), and from my year or so of spoon-business archives. If anyone wants any other information, ask me and I'll see what I can do. Also, if anyone sees anything incorrect, let me know and I'll look into it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------- Scores, attributes ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------- Everyone has zero points. Everyone has zero Research, except: Wonko has 2. Zarpint has 73. Norinel is Hand Job Master. Wonko is Zen Master of Nomic. The following people are playing: Aquarion Araltaln bd Gizmit Glotmorf Iain Norinel Phil Rob Sagitta Scoff! SkArcher Teucer The Pusher Robot theta The Voice Wonko Zarpint the Incomplete The following societies exist: M-Tek Members: Glotmorf (Prez), Wonko Mercantile Society, The Members: Wonko UNSEEN Founder: Teucer. Membership is tracked by Teucer Wealthy Bastard Enterprises Members: Glotmorf (Wealthy Bastard, Usurper), Wonko (Deposed King) Insert Name Here Members: Wonko (Leader), bd, Glotmorf, The Voice ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------- Ministries and Ministers ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------- Zarpint is Meta-Minister. Araltaln is Attorney General. Wonko is Minister of Quotes. Phil is The Twiddler. Zarpint is Minister of the Roster. The FCC, the Chairman, and the Dealer are unheld ministries. 52 elections are in progress for each. 51 of them have no nominations and no candidates. The 52nd ones are for the sake of argument the 'active' ones. In them: Wonko has been nominated and has accepted as a candidate for the FCC, the Chairman, and the Dealer. bd has been nominated and has accepted as a candidate for the FCC. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------- The Justice System ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------- The Upper House is empty; Zarpint, Wonko, and Araltaln have begun to join it and will finish at the end of the nweek. 1 CFI is pending. It does not have an assigned judge. There are no eligible judges. Newton's Third Law 15 9 2004 Araltaln Wonko Wonko failed to fulfill the Election Duty on his second attempt and all attempts thereafter. The Election Duty requires that an Election be called on every Open Ministry--however, Elections cannot be started on Ministries which already have Elections running. Therefore, Wonko could not complete the Game Actions necessary to complete this Duty. To understand why my actions are legal, look at r1583 [[Duties]]. Section A.1 of this rule states "When a Duty Requires Attention, any player who is not otherwise barred from performing that Duty may perform it." Look also at section C.2, which includes: "It shall be the responsibility of the Player carrying out the Duty to call an Election for all Free Ministries." These two sentences taken together indicate that when the Election Duty requires attention, any player who is not forbidden from calling an Election on all Free Ministries may do so. The Plaintiff's argument revolves around the claim that the rules make it illegal to call an Election for a Ministry if an Election is already in progress for that Ministry; however, this claim is not supported by the rules. It is my belief that the plaintiff was confused by r625.B, which states "Any player may start an Election for any Open Ministry as a Game Action, provided that the Ministry has been Open for at least five ndays and there is not already an Election in progress for that Ministry". This clause has no bearing on my actions: although it gives one set of circumstances under which an election may be called, it does not state or imply that calling an election is illegal under all other circumstances. Thus, it does not forbid be from calling elections as per rule 1583. Note: The following past precedents relate to this case: 1) Past use of ministries and deputies confirms that when the rules state "player X is responsible for doing Y", it is implicit in this that player X is empowered to do Y (indeed, some Ministries, and my own deputyship and thus the game, would be rendered completely nonfunctional under the current rules were this otherwise). 2) Former CFIs have supported the interpretation that a rule saying "players may do X if Y is true" should not be interpreted to forbid players from doing X when Y is false when another rule allows X to be done. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------- Proposals ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------- Three proposals exist: ------------------------ Proposal 1906: The Ugly Patch By Norinel Shelve this proposal. [[In case I come up with something better to do with it.]] ---------------------- Proposal 1907: Dutifully By Zarpint Add the following to the Ruleset as r1583.A.4: "If a Duty consists of performing one or more Actions, merely performing those Actions is not performing the Duty unless the entity performing the Actions states explicitly that e is performing the Duty. No player may perform a Duty more than once an nweek. To perform a Duty, a player must be able to perform the Actions it consists of regardless of whether or not e is performing the Duty, unless the Duty explicitly empowers Players to perform Actions." Call an election for all unoccupied Ministries with Godel as the Moderator and Approval Voting as the Selection Method. ---------------------- Proposal 1908: Respect, Again By Zarpint Add the following to the Ruleset as r21.A.3: "A.3 Respect Players may possess Respect in units of Franklins. After a Player Wins, e receives 1 Franklin. It is the responsibility of the Minister of the Roster to keep track of the Franklins each Player has." Add the following to the end of r27: "When a Player is awarded a Win in this fashion, Deactivate this Rule." [[That way, when we prop to fix a scam, we can manually reactivate r27 when we're ready.]] ---------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------- Coils ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------- One coil is posted: {{ __Cards: General interface__ Bonus: 50 points Patron: Wonko Description: The program must come in the form of something I can easily put on the website, i.e., a php page, a cgi script, a MoinMoin macro, etc. It will be responsible for being an interface for players to move cards around themselves. It must be able to do the following things: 1. It stores information (name, body, image, etc.) about each existing card, in whatever format it wants (MySQL, etc. can be arranged; tell me what you need) 2. It stores a list of 'card regions' where cards can be, and knows which cards are in which regions (examples of regions would include 'The Deck', "Wonko's Hand", and 'Waiting') 3. It provides a means of viewing, through a webpage, all of the above information 4. It provides pages that allow a person to move specific cards from one region to another 5. It provides pages that allow a person to move a random card from one region to another 6. It makes it easy to add new regions and cards, and also to destroy old ones. Other things are not necessary, but would be nice: * The ability to perform any of those changes repeatedly (for example, if I could transfer random cards from one region (like the Deck) to many other regions at once (like all players' hands) * Authentication stuff. If this is done as a MoinMoin macro, then authentication is done by the wiki itself and you can use the full power of MoinMoin's login system; if this is done as anything else, it is up to you what sort of security you use. If you don't prohibit non-players from altering the data, then I'll probably just slap a .htaccess password protection on a page and give all the players a password to edit things. * Standard buttons for common requests, for example, a 'Draw' button that moves a card at random from the region called 'The Deck' to whatever region you're currently viewing, and a 'play' button that moves a card from a hand to the Deck (or maybe to a 'pending plays' region, so we can decide if it goes into play or into the deck?) * Support for cards changing what they are and remembering their history somehow. For example, something that would let us implement The Plague. * Any other fun features you can think of. There's no time limit, but if you want complicated card things like The Plague somebody will have to fill this first, 'cause I sure don't have time to build support for that. }} ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------- Miscellany ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------- The public forum is bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org The common private forum is bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org The website is http://www.bnomic.org The wiki is unavailable, but an out-of-date backup wiki is available at http://www.bnomic.org/wiki The Roster is maintained at http://dynamicwind.com/roster.html The Rules are maintained at http://www.bnomic.org/static/rules.html The Cards are maintained at http://www.bnomic.org/display_all_cards.psp Proposals and calls for judgment are, at the moment, tracked via emails such as this one. -- Wonko In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time someting like that happened in politics or religion. -Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP Keynote Address From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Mon Sep 20 00:25:23 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:25:23 -0400 Subject: [BNomic-Public] More Actions In-Reply-To: <20040919235702.A3728@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> References: <20040919190708.A15669@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> <20040919200606.A15343@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> <1A0C1452-0A8B-11D9-AE73-000A95842464@cornell.edu> <20040919235702.A3728@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> Message-ID: <2E14AA56-0A93-11D9-AE73-000A95842464@cornell.edu> On Sep 19, 2004, at 6.57 PM, Jeremy Cook wrote: > On Sun, Sep 19, 2004 at 06:27:33PM -0400, Daniel Lepage wrote: >> >> On Sep 19, 2004, at 3.06 PM, Jeremy Cook wrote: >>> I don't even have a list of current players now. Wonko, do you have >>> such >>> a list? >> >> http://www.bnomic.org/wiki/Roster > > Not only do you have a list, you have a Wiki! yay! *cheers* An out-of-date wiki, mind you. And the scripts don't work right - no voting or prop submission. -- Wonko From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Mon Sep 20 00:36:11 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 19:36:11 -0400 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Website Message-ID: Incidentally, the front page of the website at www.bnomic.org is kind of outdated (it still says "not much here yet", it still mentions the Grid, etc.). I've fixed the obvious inaccuracies, like making the Grid past tense, but it could still use some sort of overhaul. I was thinking we could do something like this: Everyone who's got ideas for the frontpage can make their own pages and send them to me. Then I'll put them up at various places on the site, and we'll all vote on them (I'm thinking Borda Count). Whichever design wins will be used as the new frontpage, and the winner will get 100 Tildex (thanks to the Deputies rule I can do that). Using CSS is ok, using PHP or PSP is also permitted if you want. I would say no to Flash, DHTML, necessary JavaScript (you can add JS if you want, but make sure those without it can still use the site), or anything else that only works under one or two browsers. Also, if you leave a space for announcements, that'd be cool. I can take care of actually putting announcements in, but it would be good to have a design with space reserved for this. Any takers? -- Wonko Your food stamps will be stopped effective March 1992 because we received notice that you passed away. May God bless you. You may reapply if there is a change in your circumstances. ---Department of Social Services, Greenville, South Carolina From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Mon Sep 20 06:06:45 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Araltaln) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 00:06:45 -0500 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Checkpointly Recognizer In-Reply-To: <823C861C-0A8B-11D9-AE73-000A95842464@cornell.edu> References: <692B2DBD-09A6-11D9-BDFB-000A95842464@cornell.edu> <20040918210443.A23979@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> <3E8B5931-0A01-11D9-95C8-000A95842464@cornell.edu> <725382fc0409190744770f395a@mail.gmail.com> <20040919192318.B15669@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> <823C861C-0A8B-11D9-AE73-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <725382fc040919220676071af0@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 18:30:28 -0400, Daniel Lepage wrote: > CFI's aren't revisable, so I don't think they officially get numbers. > The Minister of Justice can decide what e wants to call them, I guess. They're revisable, but only as allowed for by the rules (the defendant's analysis, a Judge, a Judgment, and possibly a set of Appellate Judgments can all be added after it's been initially submitted); we've just always (that I've seen) dropped the /r, partially because there's practically no need to refer to older versions, and partially because there's practically no way to remove information from CFIs anyway. --Araltaln From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Mon Sep 20 12:07:02 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Norinel) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 07:07:02 -0400 Subject: [BNomic-Public] The State of the Game In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <332F2E9E-0AF5-11D9-95A5-000A958069F6@aftran.com> On Sunday, September 19, 2004, at 07:02 PM, Daniel Lepage wrote: > Norinel plays Smooth Hands, becoming the Hand Job Master. > Araltaln draws Cash In. > > "The Ugly Patch" is p1906. Let's make TUP deal with the whole accidentally deleting all copies of cards instead, just to keep things confusing. So I revise 1906: {{ __The Ugly Patch__ For any Card description that appears in the Cardlist but has no corresponding Cards in the Hand of any Player or the Deck, add three Cards matching that description to the Deck. Create the card: {{ __The Useless Card__ Image: You have found the useless card. Use it wisely. Body: Nothing happens. }} Add one copy of The Useless Card to the Deck. Add the following to r1727 as 1727.A.1: {{A.1. Deck Replenishment At the beginning of each nweek, for each Card description that exists in the Cardlist but has no corresponding Cards in the Deck, add one Card matching that description to the deck. If any action tries to remove more Cards from the Deck than there currently exist in the Deck, add enough copies of The Useless Card to the Deck to satisfy the deficit.}} }} From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Mon Sep 20 21:34:24 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 16:34:24 -0400 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Elections Message-ID: <75AA38DF-0B44-11D9-B5D6-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Ok, it's been 5 ndays since I called all those elections. Voting time! The candidates are: For The FCC (Ministry of Communications, in charge of fora, etc.): bd Wonko For Chairman (Ministry of Change, in charge of proposals): Wonko For Dealer (Ministry of Cards, in charge of Cards): Wonko The selection method is the Borda Count. Voting will be open for 4 ndays, so until the beginning of the last nday of the nweek. I vote as follows: FCC: 1. bd, 2. Wonko Chairman: 1. Wonko Dealer: 1. Wonko I encourage others to vote for bd for FCC, because I don't want any more ministries than I have to take. -- Wonko In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time someting like that happened in politics or religion. -Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP Keynote Address From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Tue Sep 21 00:00:40 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Jeremy Cook) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 00:00:40 +0100 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Elections In-Reply-To: <75AA38DF-0B44-11D9-B5D6-000A95842464@cornell.edu>; from dpl33@cornell.edu on Mon, Sep 20, 2004 at 04:34:24PM -0400 References: <75AA38DF-0B44-11D9-B5D6-000A95842464@cornell.edu> Message-ID: <20040921000040.A30058@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> On Mon, Sep 20, 2004 at 04:34:24PM -0400, Daniel Lepage wrote: > Ok, it's been 5 ndays since I called all those elections. Voting time! > > The candidates are: > > For The FCC (Ministry of Communications, in charge of fora, etc.): > bd > Wonko > > For Chairman (Ministry of Change, in charge of proposals): > Wonko > > For Dealer (Ministry of Cards, in charge of Cards): > Wonko Wonko, you never nominated yourself for these Ministries, as far as I can tell... Zarpint From bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org Tue Sep 21 01:27:42 2004 From: bnomic-public@ysolde.ucam.org (Daniel Lepage) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 20:27:42 -0400 Subject: [BNomic-Public] Elections In-Reply-To: <20040921000040.A30058@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> References: <75AA38DF-0B44-11D9-B5D6-000A95842464@cornell.edu> <20040921000040.A30058@sphinx.mythic-beasts.com> Message-ID: <0D09A66E-0B65-11D9-B5D6-000A95842464@cornell.edu> On Sep 20, 2004, at 7.00 PM, Jeremy Cook wrote: > On Mon, Sep 20, 2004 at 04:34:24PM -0400, Daniel Lepage wrote: >> Ok, it's been 5 ndays since I called all those elections. Voting time! >> >> The candidates are: >> >> For The FCC (Ministry of Communications, in charge of fora, etc.): >> bd >> Wonko >> >> For Chairman (Ministry of Change, in charge of proposals): >> Wonko >> >> For Dealer (Ministry of Cards, in charge of Cards): >> Wonko > > Wonko, you never nominated yourself for these Ministries, as far as I > can tell... Remember the message where I won? I think a lot of people mostly just noticed that I won, and missed the rest (though the Coil was also kind of hard to miss, what with being half the message). But what I also did was first to play Smooth Hands (that's how I became Hand-Job Master), and then to nominate myself for all ministries. Here's an abbreviated text of that message: > Ok, time to break in some of the new equipment. > > I play Smooth Hands, causing me to become the First Hand-Job Master of > B Nomic. > > I post a Coil: > {{ > __Cards: General interface__ > > }} > > Finally, I note that the FCC is a ministry and has been Free for the > past nweek. Thus, ... > > ... I Win. > > Oh, and I nominate myself for all free ministries, but only in the > final election - the other one's won't matter, as whoever wins the > last one will supplant any earlier winners. -- Wonko