[Bnomic-private] Synopsis

[Wonko]

Quoth Orc In A Spacesuit,

> 
> I would first like to thank Glotmorf for the force training and the rules
> mailed to me.
> 
> Here is a synopsis of everything that still matters that has happened from
> when Joel disconnected to now, Friday August 15, 1:35 AM CST:
> Remember, as this is a public forum, all messages are official, just as if
> they were on spoon-business.  Also, I cut a lot out of just about every
> message for brevity.
> 
> Wonko: The key part there is "would still allow the same degree of
> mutability we have now in all other rules". Yours would make
> Chutzpah immutable too.
> 
> Besides, I could get around it by redefining precedence.
> 
> Orc: No rule can be totally immutable with the current rules.  Just take out
> my chutzpah line and you get the closest you can ever get to immutability
> with the current rules.

That's the conclusion I reached too. I just wanted to see if anyone could
come up with something I wasn't seeing.

> ===================================
> [A bit about who we are, conversation-style]
> 
> BvS: To the other longer-running players: Is it just me, or are the
> newbies coming in better at the game and/or sharper at the tongue lately?
> 
> Glotmorf: Some other Nomic game let out recently?  College students
> returning to their dorms and accompanying internet access?  Or an
> amazing number of lurkers who have been watching us for nweeks on end...?
> 
> Orc: For me, try a college kid at home for the summer stumbles upon the
> game of Nomic, and in 2 days finds B Nomic, that night reads the ruleset,
> and the next day joins the game.  Old and new people, what's your story?
> 
> bd: I read about calvinball on c2.com wiki. I read about nomic. I want to
> nomic.net. I searched alive games. End of story.

One of my friends returned from vacation, bringing tales of a strange game
similar to some that I knew but much more freeform. I looked it up, and soon
a face game had started among myself and some associates. Our ruleset,
however, soon became terminally screwed, and I began to look elsewhere for
Nomic to play. I found this game on December 10, 5 days after its creation,
and joined about a week later.

> ====================================
> [Automation-Read This(edited from original post]
> 
> From orcinaspacesuit@hotmail.com Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:47:29 -0500
> 
> This is a totally new idea on my part, at least as far as posting it.
> I'm sure we've all had ideas on these lines before.  And Dave,
> please consider this, especially since it could help you do your job
> easier:
> 
> In my prop, a lot of things are standardized.  In fact, I have been creating
> a list of all possible actions (move, throw, force whatever, exchange
> (covers buy/sell)), the requirements to do so, and their effects.  I came up
> with an idea:
> 
> A sort of script/web page/whatever on which the players may choose from a
> list of possible actions (move, propose, vote, force absorb, etc.), choose
> their targets (what they are throwing, who they are throwing it at...), and
> any other values, like the text of a prop.
> 
> Now, I'm sure all of you are wondering how it deals with illegal actions,
> and what good it will do anyway.  First, actions do not happen just because
> you attempt them; the page would only allow the attempting.  Whenever
> someone attempts an action, it is listed on a second web page, in a standard
> form.  The admin can then easily just check off which actions fail and which
> succeed.  Everyone else would also have easy access to see what has
> happened; email could even be sent out on a regular basis showing changes to
> the the page, for those who don't want to bother going there to see what
> happpened.
> 
> Well, that would be kinda nice, but here's something that could be added to
> that:  Let's say someone takes the Move action to Grid Location (5,6).  The
> admin looks at what's going on, determines that the move is legal, and
> clicks the check box.  For the move action, there is a tiny (one-line,
> maybe) script that /automatically moves that player, putting him on the
> correct location on the grid/.  If he recognizes a CFI, all he has to do is
> click the checkmark, and pick a judge from the active players (an option
> list with their names could pop up), and sit back until a ruling comes.
> 
> We wouldn't want the above paragraph to become too ingrained, of course, as
> the rules can change what happens.  Therefore, if such a system is
> implemented, it would of course be wise to manually do the changes for
> actions that are likely to change in effect, only automating things like
> throws and moves and such.  But still, it would likely be much easier on the
> admin.
> 
> Finally, if my prop passes, it will be EXTREMELY easy to put /everything/
> about the game into one database (And I could put it into one, if you guys
> want).  With this done, not only could the earlier stuff in this post
> happen, but also this: The system could take a look at the current state of
> the game, and determine that "the square being moved to is not within within
> 1 square of the player's current location", or "the square being moved to
> contains an impassable object", giving /reccomendations/ about the legality
> of the action so the admin doesn't have to look the simple stuff up every
> time.
> 
> I have database experience in C and Visual Basic, so could contribute to
> this being set up, but I don't have the java and other stuff down enough yet
> to do it all by myself.
> 
> If nothing else, this system could provide a more detailed and accurate grid
> and roster, and automate some of the minstries.  The reason I bring this
> idea
> up is that Dave seems overwhelmed, especially with the 1000 cfi and other
> foolishness.

I've actually been working on programs that work as you've described - the
Ministry of the Force website, for example, is actually written by a spiffy
little interface program I wrote, so all I have to do is post it online. I'd
also been thinking of adapting ForceLord slightly to take on other
ministries as well (I actually laid out all the plans for a GridLord
program, but I never wrote it 'cause WC then got the Ministry). But I don't
know much Java or any other web-oriented language, so I'm not sure if what
I've written can be useful at all...

> ==================================
> [Glotmorf's thoughts on Orc's prop and the database thing]
> 
> From glotmorf@earthlink.net Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:17:11 -0400
> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:17:11 -0400
> 
> Couple things from reading the list...
> 
> If OiaB's The Prop is gonna cover everything, OiaB's The Prop is never=
> going to get done.  This is because everything routinely changes on a=
> dekaday basis.  If it doesn't, I'm sure a few enterprising people would be=
> happy to contribute to make it change, just to keep someone writing eir=
> The Prop on eir toes.
> 
> Regarding automating everything with scripts, unified databases,=
> error-checking web forms, etc: see above.
> 
> Okay, I'm not being fair on that one.  I hear, every once in a while, that=
> Dave has actually, God help him, automated it all, has actually written=
> code to do everything (even House Grem), and actually maintains it on an=
> nweekly basis.  Despite our efforts, and our overrides of his vetos.  But=
> it can't be easy, and there might be an alternative in the form of modular=
> development: each ministry constitutes its own code and database dependent=
> on the central database.  Which will work fine as long as the ministry=
> crossovers don't get too terribly radical.  It's what I'm doing now with=
> the Insta-Ministry.  Now, if I can only find the time to finish the=
> code...

Of course, if it were all one program, the crossovers would be considerably
easier - for example, the Ministry of the Ordinance Survey and the Ministry
of the Force would never need to be throwing messages at each other saying,
"bd's Force bonus box finding is recognized."
"bd's Force bonus box finding is recognized, refilling eir Force. bd Force
Pulls for 6 Force Points."
"bd's Force Pulling is recognized - a Sheep gnome moves from (x,y) to (x,y)"
etc.

If we wrote it all as one program, wouldn't it be easiest just to make it
like some sort of MUD?

> ====================================
> [A summary]
> 
> Seems like bd ought to be getting a Mithril Buttplate from all the
> kicking he's getting.  Basically, several people kick him, a lot.
> Thousands of times, even.  Wonko enjoys it, and BvS points out
> if bd really could be kicked once for every CFI (it's been called
> Unbridled Hostility by some), it would be a very interesting way to
> win (5 points per kick).  Of course, this can't happen, because even
> if what he did was kickable, you can only get kicked once per forum
> message.

But we're not kicking em for eir forum message - we're kicking em for
actions taking therein. E may not be kicked twice for the same action taken,
but the per forum thing is for issues where the kick is delivered not for
what game action e took, but for what message e sent (for example, if e were
to send an HTML message).

I believe I can kick em 1001 times, once per offensive action taken.

The Baron, however, cannot perform all those kicks, as I already kicked bd
for all those actions.

I would then like to point out that the buttplates rule does not supercede
the kicking rule; therefore, while bd does gain the attribute 'buttplated',
it does not stop me from gaining well over 1000 points (5005, to be exact),
or from gaining the attribute 'Supreme Kicker of Asses'.

-- 
Wonko