[Bnomic-private] Synopsis

[Orc In A Spacesuit]

I would first like to thank Glotmorf for the force training and the rules 
mailed to me.

Here is a synopsis of everything that still matters that has happened from 
when Joel disconnected to now, Friday August 15, 1:35 AM CST:
Remember, as this is a public forum, all messages are official, just as if 
they were on spoon-business.  Also, I cut a lot out of just about every 
message for brevity.

=========================================
[Complete message from Dave, making this list official]

>From dave@technopagan.org Thu, 15 Aug 2002 00:28:32 +0000 (GMT)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 00:28:32 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [Bnomic-private] The Not-Recognizer

I don't have time to plow through the last 150 messages sent to the two
lists right now. (I've skimmed a little, and whoever it was that issued a
thousand CFIs is gonna get it in the nutsack.)

(By the way, about 80% of those CFIs are trivially false, since the
numbers don't exist, or refer to things that aren't rules anyway.)

I declare the mailing list "bnomic-private@ysolde.ucam.org" to be a Public
Forum.

I issue a one-day Writ of Delay.

(With a little luck, I'll have the Web site moved somewhere else
temporarily in the next few hours -- I've already got a dump of the
database and the static pages. Ministers are requested not to do anything
involving the Web site for the next few hours while I work out the
details.)

...dave


=========================================
[One of Orc's batch replies]

>From orcinaspacesuit@hotmail.com Wed, 14 Aug 2002 23:27:04 -0500
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 23:27:04 -0500

I leave for 2 days and all hell breaks loose...
I posted this to SpoonDiscuss and bd's new forum.  Hopefully it'll get
through somewhere; if you get two copies, you know what to do...

I would just like to point out that all the mess in the past 2-3 days,
including 1000 CFI's, jumping off the grid, and more, are completely and
nicely handled in my prop.  So once I get it finished please consider it.
Hopefully it will not have loopholes; I've been working very hard to make it
not have any for a while.
Anyway, here are a few replies.  I've decided to ignore the mess of rules
coming down for now, as well as all the confusing stock market fixing
proposals and fixes to those props.

--------------------------

Glotmorf: Secondly, you can't join Team Crimson, since it's already got two
members whilst
Team Turquoise only has one.

Orc:  Actually, Athena has a team member too.  I forget who, and can't
access the roster right now.

------------------------

Glotmorf: I leave the grid, citing... [removed for brevity]

Orc: I'm sure you remember me trying that, and pretty much everyone here
agrees that that is not what that statement means.  Sure, you interpert it
that way, but most of us don't, the Judge in the CFI this may cause won't
either, and hopefully Dave will agree with me.

------------------------

Glotmorf: Yeah, it is.  Urinating on most computers would cause them to
short out ("Emits
showers of sparks") or otherwise become inoperable.  This would trigger a
State
of Emergency, which would be a gamestate change.  Therefore urinating on
Joel's
computer is an unpermitted gamestate change, and thus illegal.

Orc: MAY cause the computer to short out.  What if it's the keyboard?  That
won't actually short out the computer, and may even leave the computer
functional.  Plus, a shorting out wouldn't be an actual change, but be the
cause of a change.

-------------------------

Glotmorf: Have a look at Rule 469, Dimensional Realms.  I created the idea
of realms because of the idea that IRL we naturally occupy three dimensions,
and don't necessarily move in any additional dimensions no matter how much
we move around in our basic three.  Therefore, for two players to be
dimensionally in the same location, it should only be necessary for them
to be within a certain distance of each other in all but three dimensions.

I made it fuzzy because there are just too many variances in player
dimensions to count on an exact location.  This is also where dimships
came in, because if all you need are all dimensions but three in common,
it makes it hard (but not impossible) to avoid a dimship coming up and
shooting at you...or for the other player to keep you from doing the same
in response.

So I think the currently defined realms would be more workable and more
playable than your locations.

Orc:  Yes, I know what I recently said about abcdefghij is crappy.  I just
thought of it on the spur of the moment, and I can work in dimensional
realms quite easily.  That's just a way to add them later.  If you still
want realms and dimensions, which in the current rules are nothing but
numbers, I can put them in.  Just say you want them still.

--------------------------

Wonko: The key part there is "would still allow the same degree of
mutability we have now in all other rules". Yours would make
Chutzpah immutable too.

Besides, I could get around it by redefining precedence.

Orc: No rule can be totally immutable with the current rules.  Just take out
my chutzpah line and you get the closest you can ever get to immutability
with the current rules.

--------------------------

--
Wonko
Current Status: Wondering what the point of a Current Status message is.

Orc: Since the current roster isn't complete (missing things like
mischiviousness) or current all the time, I was going to put my own
'mini-roster' there, listing my current status if all the actions I did were
legal (or, if there legality was questionable, before).  However, I started
using it before I joined the game, and it kind of morphed into what it is
now.

----------------------------

Glotmorf: I kick bd in the ass.  Just because.  If there isn't sufficient
justification in
the LOGAS to do it, I do it anyway, just without any honor attached.

Orc: Me too.

===================================
[A bit about who we are, conversation-style]

BvS: To the other longer-running players: Is it just me, or are the
newbies coming in better at the game and/or sharper at the tongue lately?

Glotmorf: Some other Nomic game let out recently?  College students
returning to their dorms and accompanying internet access?  Or an
amazing number of lurkers who have been watching us for nweeks on end...?

Orc: For me, try a college kid at home for the summer stumbles upon the
game of Nomic, and in 2 days finds B Nomic, that night reads the ruleset,
and the next day joins the game.  Old and new people, what's your story?

bd: I read about calvinball on c2.com wiki. I read about nomic. I want to
nomic.net. I searched alive games. End of story.

====================================
[ACTION]
>From orcinaspacesuit@hotmail.com Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:40:07 -0500

My first insta rule:
"It is illegal to take from Orc in a Spacesuit gnomes."

====================================
[Just a message]

Orc: For any who care, yesterday I returned to college and now have full
access to web hosting stuff.  So I can host stuff if necessary.

====================================
[Fix the nuttiness]

>From orcinaspacesuit@hotmail.com Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:19:54 -0500

I could include in my prop a kind of 'soft reset' of the game, LEAVING
EVERYTHING PRETTY MUCH HOW IT IS, but stating the values of everything how
we want it (unbroken), saying Wonko has 3000 BNS, nobody just 'left the
grid', and nobody made a bunch of crazy cfi's.
Oh wait, darnit, to include the cfi's in the reset, I'd have to go into
fixing the cfi rules.  At least, do it right, anyway.

====================================
[Automation-Read This(edited from original post]

>From orcinaspacesuit@hotmail.com Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:47:29 -0500

This is a totally new idea on my part, at least as far as posting it.
I'm sure we've all had ideas on these lines before.  And Dave,
please consider this, especially since it could help you do your job
easier:

In my prop, a lot of things are standardized.  In fact, I have been creating
a list of all possible actions (move, throw, force whatever, exchange
(covers buy/sell)), the requirements to do so, and their effects.  I came up
with an idea:

A sort of script/web page/whatever on which the players may choose from a
list of possible actions (move, propose, vote, force absorb, etc.), choose
their targets (what they are throwing, who they are throwing it at...), and
any other values, like the text of a prop.

Now, I'm sure all of you are wondering how it deals with illegal actions,
and what good it will do anyway.  First, actions do not happen just because
you attempt them; the page would only allow the attempting.  Whenever
someone attempts an action, it is listed on a second web page, in a standard
form.  The admin can then easily just check off which actions fail and which
succeed.  Everyone else would also have easy access to see what has
happened; email could even be sent out on a regular basis showing changes to
the the page, for those who don't want to bother going there to see what
happpened.

Well, that would be kinda nice, but here's something that could be added to
that:  Let's say someone takes the Move action to Grid Location (5,6).  The
admin looks at what's going on, determines that the move is legal, and
clicks the check box.  For the move action, there is a tiny (one-line,
maybe) script that /automatically moves that player, putting him on the
correct location on the grid/.  If he recognizes a CFI, all he has to do is
click the checkmark, and pick a judge from the active players (an option
list with their names could pop up), and sit back until a ruling comes.

We wouldn't want the above paragraph to become too ingrained, of course, as
the rules can change what happens.  Therefore, if such a system is
implemented, it would of course be wise to manually do the changes for
actions that are likely to change in effect, only automating things like
throws and moves and such.  But still, it would likely be much easier on the
admin.

Finally, if my prop passes, it will be EXTREMELY easy to put /everything/
about the game into one database (And I could put it into one, if you guys
want).  With this done, not only could the earlier stuff in this post
happen, but also this: The system could take a look at the current state of
the game, and determine that "the square being moved to is not within within
1 square of the player's current location", or "the square being moved to
contains an impassable object", giving /reccomendations/ about the legality
of the action so the admin doesn't have to look the simple stuff up every
time.

I have database experience in C and Visual Basic, so could contribute to
this being set up, but I don't have the java and other stuff down enough yet
to do it all by myself.

If nothing else, this system could provide a more detailed and accurate grid
and roster, and automate some of the minstries.  The reason I bring this 
idea
up is that Dave seems overwhelmed, especially with the 1000 cfi and other
foolishness.

=================================
[Wonko ministers us]

>From dplepage@twcny.rr.com Thu, 15 Aug 2002 22:59:48 -0400
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 22:59:48 -0400

Right. I forgot about this last time - I updated the website but didn't tell
anyone. Anyway, all the Force stuff is up-to-date -

*Everyone's force went up by eir recoveries last nweek
*Bean and Uin disappeared
*bd advanced emself
*Mithrandir, Orc, and Squire joined the game
*Glotmorf paid 10 to advance Orc

==================================
[Glotmorf's thoughts on Orc's prop and the database thing]

>From glotmorf@earthlink.net Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:17:11 -0400
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 23:17:11 -0400

Couple things from reading the list...

If OiaB's The Prop is gonna cover everything, OiaB's The Prop is never=
going to get done.  This is because everything routinely changes on a=
dekaday basis.  If it doesn't, I'm sure a few enterprising people would be=
happy to contribute to make it change, just to keep someone writing eir=
The Prop on eir toes.

Regarding automating everything with scripts, unified databases,=
error-checking web forms, etc: see above.

Okay, I'm not being fair on that one.  I hear, every once in a while, that=
Dave has actually, God help him, automated it all, has actually written=
code to do everything (even House Grem), and actually maintains it on an=
nweekly basis.  Despite our efforts, and our overrides of his vetos.  But=
it can't be easy, and there might be an alternative in the form of modular=
development: each ministry constitutes its own code and database dependent=
on the central database.  Which will work fine as long as the ministry=
crossovers don't get too terribly radical.  It's what I'm doing now with=
the Insta-Ministry.  Now, if I can only find the time to finish the=
code...

====================================
[A summary]

Seems like bd ought to be getting a Mithril Buttplate from all the
kicking he's getting.  Basically, several people kick him, a lot.
Thousands of times, even.  Wonko enjoys it, and BvS points out
if bd really could be kicked once for every CFI (it's been called
Unbridled Hostility by some), it would be a very interesting way to
win (5 points per kick).  Of course, this can't happen, because even
if what he did was kickable, you can only get kicked once per forum
message.

=====================================
[Wonko on the Roster]

Quoth bd,

>I create the following CFI:
>{{
>Statement: http://www.nomic.net/~g6/static/roster.html is not the Roster, 
>as
>defined in rule 24/0, is not the roster, as of the time this CFI was made.
>
>Analysis: Rule 24/0 states that the roster contains the email address of 
>all
>players. http://www.nomic.net/~g6/static/roster.html does not have this
>information. Therefore, it is not the roster.
>
>Defendant: Wonko [[ Because I said so. ]]
>}}

So it's not the Roster. So what?

===================================



Orc In A Spacesuit


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