[Bnomic-private] Re: [spoon-discuss] Too quiet, bd?

[Glotmorf]

On 8/16/02 at 11:35 PM Wonko wrote:

>Okay, this is based on the draft you sent out. A lot of the spelling and
>grammar points I mention have probably already been fixed, but just in
>case,
>they're all here. I'm certain that not all of the things I object to are
>fixed in the currently posted version.

I'm starting to get a weird idea...What if we had a second ruleset that we=
 could experiment with, such that if we were ever all happy with it we=
 could swap it in?  I mean, OiaB's The Prop sounds like it's big enough=
 that modifying and maintaining it would be as involved as the main game...

>> Well, here goes, and remember, you have bd to blame for sending this
>> incomplete mess to you...
>
>I'd kick em again, but I'm tired of kicking the same person over an over
>again... Somebody else do something stupid ;)

Some straight lines just can't be bought...:)

>> {{
>> I propose the following rules:
>> {{__Objects__
>> Preamble:  The following words are capitalized in this Rule to show that
>> they have special meaning.  In all references outside this Rule, these
>words
>> need not be capitalized.  These words are: Rule, Object, Property,=
 Value,
>> Type, items in quotes, and the plural versions of those.  Any reference

"items in quotes" are capitalized in this rule but don't need to be=
 otherwise?  What if I, by Eddie, WANT to capitalize something in quotes?=
 :)

>to
>> one of those words between '<' and '>' indicate that one of the word
>between
>> the <> should be subsituted.  This Rule and all parts of it defers to=
 all
>> Rules or parts of Rules that do not say they defer to this Rule, unless
>> otherwise specified.  IF a rule supercedes this rule, all parts not
>Otherwise specified by this rule, you mean?
>> specifcally superceded or contradicted are still in effect.

Why not make this a general case -- work it into the precedence rule?

>> A. Definition
>> In this game, there are Objects.  All Objects have Properties. 
>Properties
>> have Values.  An Object may only have a Property defined in a Rule, and
>> Property may only have a Value defined in a Rule.  Also, Objects,
>Properties
>> of Objects and Values of Properties may not be modified, removed, added
>or
>> redefined except as stated in a Rule.  No Values may be over 255
>characters
>> in length.  In the case of a Value being a deliniated list, each item in
>the
>> list may not be over 255 characters, and the list as a whole is
>unlimited .
>> If a list contains 2 or ore identical values, then all but the first of
>ore -> more
>> those values is removed, unless specified otherwise.  If a Property has=
 a
>> default value, then that default Value if assigned to that Value upon
>> creation of that object, unless specifed otherwise.  If there is no
>default
>> Value and no other Value is specified, then the Property shall be empty
>if
>> it is a string or list (contain no characters or Values), and be 0 if it
>is
>> a number.  If those Values are not valid, and not default or other
>starting
>not -> no
>> Values are specified, the Action creating the Object fails.  All lists=
 in
>> this Rule are semicolon-deliniated.  A "P-Integer" is an Integer that=
 may
>> not be lower than 0.  "Real" means "Real Number" when it is stated as a
>> Value Type.  If an Action would result in any Value being an invalid
>Value,
>> that entire Action does not happen.
>> 
>> A.1.
>> Objects have the Property "Name", which is a string consisting of
>> alphanumeric, whitespace, and non-semicolon, non-parentheses=
 punctuation.
>> Each object shall be referred to as either "<Name>", "The <Name>" or=
 "The
>> <Name> (Description to differentiate this Object from others with the
>same
>> Name)", or by "<Nickname>".  All Objects are given a name upon creation.
>> All Independent Entities choose their own Name upon creation; all other
>> Objects are given their Name by definition. No Name can be equal to any
>> Property or Value, except as specified by a Rule [[No superceding
>necessary,
>> a Rule just has to specify otherwise]].
>> 
>> Names are used for identification. Any similarity between the string of
>> characters that constitute the name of an Object and a string of
>characters
>> in the text of a Proposal, Rule, or Judgment shall have no impact on the
>> implementation of that Proposal, Rule, or Judgment, unless the language
>of
>> the Proposal, Rule, or Judgment specifically indicates the string of
>> characters is referring to an Object of that name. [[For example, "the
>> player JohnDoe" or "the player named JohnDoe."]]

...In which case, the impact is what?

>> B.2.
>> If a Player is "Awarded a Win", the following occur:
>> The Rule {{ __No Win For You__ {* Win, 9 *}
>> Wins may not be awarded.  This rule supercedes all other rules.}} is
>> created.[[No vote necessary]].
>> Score, BNS, Charm, Activity, Style, Entropy, BAC, and Mischiviousness=
 are
>> all set to their initial values for all Objects that have these
>Properties,
>> as though these Objects had just been created.
>> The player who was awarded the Win receives one point of Respect and one
>> point of Wins.
>> The effects listed in Rule 440 occur, as though Universal Entropy had
>> exceeded Maximum Entropy.
>> The Clock is turned Off until the Watch reads three wdays [[so we can
>have a
>> bit of a breather]]
>> If possible, play continues normally.
>
>Take out the ClockStop. Please!

You will PAY for your victories, miscreant!

>> B.7. Entropy
>> At the end of each nweek, each player's Entropy shall increase by an
>amount
>> equal to the sum of the number of proposals e had on the ballot for that
>> nweek which passed and 1/2 the number of game actions (movements,
>purchases,
>> throws, etc.)taken during that nweek.  This includes any Actions which
>> otherwise have no effect on any Object, Property, or Value [[Such as
>"Orc In
>> a Spacesuit plays in the mud at ier position]]. [[See Game State for
>more on
>> Entropy]].

Does this mean the Administrator has to recognize all actions, legal or=
 not, inasmuch as even illegal actions add to one's entropy?

>> B.9. Mischiviousness

The state of having incorrectly been willing to chivvy?

>> B.11. Nobility
>> Each Player's Nobility is always equal to the number of Titles e has.
>
>I see.

So one's Nobility goes up when one uses one's Style points to buy more=
 titles?

>> {{__Game State__
>> The Object Game State exists, with the following Properties: Name,=
 Types,
>> Status, nday, nweek, nyear, wday, wweek, wyear, Universal Entropy,
>Maximum
>> Entropy.
>
>So thing such as the existance of players and other objects are not part=
 of
>the GameState?

Nor, for that matter, are the rules.

>> {{__Actions__
>> Preamble: This rule defers to all other rules except __Objects__, except
>> when specified otherwise.
>> 
>> A. Definition
>> Entities may take Actions permitted them in the Rules.  No non-Entity
>Object
>> may take Actions.  Actions are not Objects.

Actually, making actions objects might be useful, especially when it comes=
 to rolling the clock forward: just delete those action objects that need=
 deleting, then re-perform the rest.  Course, then all actions would need=
 to be uniquely identified...

>> A.1. Effects of all Actions
>> Whenever an Entity takes a non-proposal Action, if it has the Property
>> Entropy, it's Entropy shall increase by .5.  If this equal increase is
>> stated elsewhere in the rules, and is not stated to be a different
>increase,
>> then both increases shall be considered one, and eir Entropy shall
>increase
>> only by for both increases.  This section defers to all other rules and
>> sections of rules, except as specified otherwise.
>
>only by for both increases? Not sure what you want to say there...

This turns into apples and oranges with the earlier rule that said entropy=
 was calculated from 1/2 the non-proposal actions.  From a practical sense,=
 yes, this means a non-proposal action produces .5 entropy, but strictly=
 speaking .5 per action isn't the same as 1/2 of the number of actions.

>> B. Restriction
>> Any Action defined or referenced in any rule is a Restricted Action.
>> Restricted Actions may only be taken when specifically permitted by the
>> Rules.  Any Action which is not Restricted is Unrestricted.=
  Unrestricted
>> Actions may be taken by any Entity at any time.  Unrestricted Actions do
>not
>> change any Object, Property, or Value, including Rules and Proposals,

So  rules are objects, properties or values?

>and do
>> not affect the game in any way, except as follows:
>> Unrestricted Actions cause the normal change in Entropy, if applicable.
>
>What is considered to be an Unrestricted Action? You've never actually
>defined Action - does my raising my hand count as an 'Action'? How about=
 if
>I pick my nose, or take my yearly bath?

Then you'll have to return my green shirt.

>> Unrestricted Actions are part of posts in Public Forums, and may cause
>> events related to posts, but not the actual content of the Unrestricted
>> Action
>
>Ah, so it has to be in a post. Still, does, for example, the post itself
>count as an Action?

Give me time and I will come up with a way to make gremlins perform actions=
 without being told that aren't listed in the rules.  Would such actions be=
 restricted since there must be some indirect mechanism to permit them,=
 unrestricted since they aren't listed in the rules, or neither since=
 they're not part of posts in public forums?

>> Unrestricted Actions may be processed by and may affect the judgement of
>> Independent Entities.  Note that this processing and affection of
>judgement
>> are completly beyond the control of the Action (ie, an Unrestricted
>Actions
>> can't say "Wonko decides to vote 'no' on all ballots this week" and make
>it
>> so; however, as a result of processing an Action, may decide so of ier
>own
>> free will).
>
>completly -> completely; ier -> eir; You've used 'this' in front of
>something you later used 'are' for (processing and affection of judgement)
>-
>is it singular or plural?
>Judgement is actually spelt Judgment

Spelt is a kind of european wheat.  So judgement is sort of judgment bran?

And how is judgement or judgment defined in this context?  I assure you I'm=
 not going to get drunk on any action taken in this game.  Unconscious from=
 laughing too hard, maybe, but not drunk.

>> C. Performance of Actions
>> An Action is attempted by either a Rule saying an Entity does it, or by
>an
>> Entity stating that e does it in a Public Forum.  Actions may only be
>taken
>> while The Clock is On.
>
>So, for example, the admin could not end a Road Trip while the Clock was
>Off, because that would be an action?

Have we determined that the administrator is an entity?

>> If any Action cannot be completed in part, then the entire Action fails,
>and
>> does not happen.  The only Event that happens is that the Acting Entity
>> tried to perform the Action; The Action does not happen.  Valid Targets
>must
>> be specifiedIf there is no valid Targets for an action (if that action
>has
>> targets), then the Action fails.
>
>specifiedIf -> specified; If

"cannot be completed in part" -- an action must contain sub-actions?

>> D. List of Restricted Actions
>> The following Actions are Restricted.  Parentheses seperate parts of a
>> senctence in this section, and are used for clarity.  Other Restricted
>> Actions may be defined elsewhere.  If any Action listed in this Rule is
>> defined in another Rule, this definition supercedes the other, unless
>such
>> definition's intent is to define additional effects or qualifications of
>the
>> Action, in which case the Effects defined at both are true, unless such
>> truth would directly result in a paradox or is impossible, in which the
>> definition not listed here is entirely null and void.  This section up=
 to
>> this point takes precedence over all other Rules and parts of them,
>except
>> when specified otherwise.  Notes are addtional Rules.  Wording is an
>> alternate way to state an action, and may be adjusted for proper=
 grammar.
>> In Wording, '<>' are used to deliniate either Values or plain English
>text,
>> and may include names and pronouns

The Wheel of Precedence seems to get re-invented multiple times in this=
 proposal...

>> Action: Move
>> Action: Jump
>> Action: Throw
>> Action: Launch
>> Action: Give
>> Action: Refuse
>> Action: Exchange

These all appear to be grid actions.  I think I'd rather see grid actions=
 enclosed in a grid rule, which can be conveniently repealed in its=
 entirety, leaving the rest of the ruleset standing.

>> }}
>> {{__Events__
>> Events are things that happen.  The following are events:
>> Any Object is created, modified or destroyed (including rules and
>proposals)
>> Any Action is attempted
>> Any Action is completed
>> Any Action is failed
>> }}
>You'll probably want a closing }} here...
>
>Other than that, I like it. Good Job.

Okay.  I didn't read this that closely the first time it was posted...I=
 figured I'd have time to read it once it got formally proposed.  Silly of=
 me.  As it is, I've cut out sections I'm not commenting on at this time.=
  And I kick Wonko in the ass for having performed the act of Unbridled=
 Hostility of stuffing my mail archive with 37k messages.

But this time around I've noticed a couple things: (1) a strong resemblance=
 to Microsoft Visual Basic documentation; and (2) a tendency to blend the=
 syntactical with the existential.  Both of these would make a certain=
 amount of sense if you were detailing how to textually represent the=
 gamestate such that it can be loaded into a relational database, but=
 they're not as useful when trying to understand what something IS.  A=
 collection of things is not a list, and certainly not a=
 semicolon-delimited list; it is a collection of things.  The plurality of=
 things isn't necessarily determined by whether a thing is referenced with=
 a parenthesized number following it, and I'm not sure it's actually useful=
 to prevent me from saying, "an earth gnome, and another earth gnome, and=
 yet another earth gnome".

OiaS is trying to define, I think, a hierarchical database.  I personally=
 think this is inadequate to define the game.

						Glotmorf