[Bnomic-private] Re: [spoon-discuss] Too quiet, bd?

[Wonko]

Quoth Glotmorf,

> On 8/16/02 at 11:35 PM Wonko wrote:
>=20
>> Okay, this is based on the draft you sent out. A lot of the spelling and
>> grammar points I mention have probably already been fixed, but just in
>> case,
>> they're all here. I'm certain that not all of the things I object to are
>> fixed in the currently posted version.
>=20
> I'm starting to get a weird idea...What if we had a second ruleset that w=
e
> could experiment with, such that if we were ever all happy with it we cou=
ld
> swap it in?  I mean, OiaB's The Prop sounds like it's big enough that
> modifying and maintaining it would be as involved as the main game...

I was thinking of doing something similar to that to expand r0 - the rule
which says that all entities must follow the rules could then be amended to
say, 'all Game entities must follow ruleset A, unless a SOE is declared, in
which case all Game Entities must follow ruleset B."

>>> Well, here goes, and remember, you have bd to blame for sending this
>>> incomplete mess to you...
>>=20
>> I'd kick em again, but I'm tired of kicking the same person over an over
>> again... Somebody else do something stupid ;)
>=20
> Some straight lines just can't be bought...:)

Hmmm.... Buying Kicks.... Interesting idea....

>>> {{
>>> I propose the following rules:
>>> {{__Objects__
>>> Preamble:  The following words are capitalized in this Rule to show tha=
t
>>> they have special meaning.  In all references outside this Rule, these
>> words
>>> need not be capitalized.  These words are: Rule, Object, Property, Valu=
e,
>>> Type, items in quotes, and the plural versions of those.  Any reference
>=20
> "items in quotes" are capitalized in this rule but don't need to be other=
wise?
> What if I, by Eddie, WANT to capitalize something in quotes? :)

It says "need not", not cannot. You still can.

>> to
>>> one of those words between '<' and '>' indicate that one of the word
>> between
>>> the <> should be subsituted.  This Rule and all parts of it defers to a=
ll
>>> Rules or parts of Rules that do not say they defer to this Rule, unless
>>> otherwise specified.  IF a rule supercedes this rule, all parts not
>> Otherwise specified by this rule, you mean?
>>> specifcally superceded or contradicted are still in effect.
>=20
> Why not make this a general case -- work it into the precedence rule?
>=20
>>> A. Definition
>>> In this game, there are Objects.  All Objects have Properties.
>> Properties
>>> have Values.  An Object may only have a Property defined in a Rule, and
>>> Property may only have a Value defined in a Rule.  Also, Objects,
>> Properties
>>> of Objects and Values of Properties may not be modified, removed, added
>> or
>>> redefined except as stated in a Rule.  No Values may be over 255
>> characters
>>> in length.  In the case of a Value being a deliniated list, each item i=
n
>> the
>>> list may not be over 255 characters, and the list as a whole is
>> unlimited .
>>> If a list contains 2 or ore identical values, then all but the first of
>> ore -> more
>>> those values is removed, unless specified otherwise.  If a Property has=
 a
>>> default value, then that default Value if assigned to that Value upon
>>> creation of that object, unless specifed otherwise.  If there is no
>> default
>>> Value and no other Value is specified, then the Property shall be empty
>> if
>>> it is a string or list (contain no characters or Values), and be 0 if i=
t
>> is
>>> a number.  If those Values are not valid, and not default or other
>> starting
>> not -> no
>>> Values are specified, the Action creating the Object fails.  All lists =
in
>>> this Rule are semicolon-deliniated.  A "P-Integer" is an Integer that m=
ay
>>> not be lower than 0.  "Real" means "Real Number" when it is stated as a
>>> Value Type.  If an Action would result in any Value being an invalid
>> Value,
>>> that entire Action does not happen.
>>>=20
>>> A.1.
>>> Objects have the Property "Name", which is a string consisting of
>>> alphanumeric, whitespace, and non-semicolon, non-parentheses punctuatio=
n.
>>> Each object shall be referred to as either "<Name>", "The <Name>" or "T=
he
>>> <Name> (Description to differentiate this Object from others with the
>> same
>>> Name)", or by "<Nickname>".  All Objects are given a name upon creation=
.
>>> All Independent Entities choose their own Name upon creation; all other
>>> Objects are given their Name by definition. No Name can be equal to any
>>> Property or Value, except as specified by a Rule [[No superceding
>> necessary,
>>> a Rule just has to specify otherwise]].
>>>=20
>>> Names are used for identification. Any similarity between the string of
>>> characters that constitute the name of an Object and a string of
>> characters
>>> in the text of a Proposal, Rule, or Judgment shall have no impact on th=
e
>>> implementation of that Proposal, Rule, or Judgment, unless the language
>> of
>>> the Proposal, Rule, or Judgment specifically indicates the string of
>>> characters is referring to an Object of that name. [[For example, "the
>>> player JohnDoe" or "the player named JohnDoe."]]
>=20
> ...In which case, the impact is what?

The impact is whatever the proposal said. This is taken from the current
ruleset, and it is why I do not fear bd's proposed rule regarding my stock
market usage - if a rule refers to 'Wonko', it doesn't mean me unless it
specifies that it's talking about the player. This is from way back when,
when uin tried to change eir name to 'the rules'.

>>> B.2.
>>> If a Player is "Awarded a Win", the following occur:
>>> The Rule {{ __No Win For You__ {* Win, 9 *}
>>> Wins may not be awarded.  This rule supercedes all other rules.}} is
>>> created.[[No vote necessary]].
>>> Score, BNS, Charm, Activity, Style, Entropy, BAC, and Mischiviousness a=
re
>>> all set to their initial values for all Objects that have these
>> Properties,
>>> as though these Objects had just been created.
>>> The player who was awarded the Win receives one point of Respect and on=
e
>>> point of Wins.
>>> The effects listed in Rule 440 occur, as though Universal Entropy had
>>> exceeded Maximum Entropy.
>>> The Clock is turned Off until the Watch reads three wdays [[so we can
>> have a
>>> bit of a breather]]
>>> If possible, play continues normally.
>>=20
>> Take out the ClockStop. Please!
>=20
> You will PAY for your victories, miscreant!
>=20
>>> B.7. Entropy
>>> At the end of each nweek, each player's Entropy shall increase by an
>> amount
>>> equal to the sum of the number of proposals e had on the ballot for tha=
t
>>> nweek which passed and 1/2 the number of game actions (movements,
>> purchases,
>>> throws, etc.)taken during that nweek.  This includes any Actions which
>>> otherwise have no effect on any Object, Property, or Value [[Such as
>> "Orc In
>>> a Spacesuit plays in the mud at ier position]]. [[See Game State for
>> more on
>>> Entropy]].
>=20
> Does this mean the Administrator has to recognize all actions, legal or n=
ot,
> inasmuch as even illegal actions add to one's entropy?
>=20
>>> B.9. Mischiviousness
>=20
> The state of having incorrectly been willing to chivvy?
>=20
>>> B.11. Nobility
>>> Each Player's Nobility is always equal to the number of Titles e has.
>>=20
>> I see.
>=20
> So one's Nobility goes up when one uses one's Style points to buy more ti=
tles?

Those ain't titles; Them's is Style Atterbyoots!

>>> {{__Game State__
>>> The Object Game State exists, with the following Properties: Name, Type=
s,
>>> Status, nday, nweek, nyear, wday, wweek, wyear, Universal Entropy,
>> Maximum
>>> Entropy.
>>=20
>> So thing such as the existance of players and other objects are not part=
 of
>> the GameState?
>=20
> Nor, for that matter, are the rules.

Pure Nomic! Whee!=20
Except without the Nomic part....
Pure! Whee!

>>> {{__Actions__
>>> Preamble: This rule defers to all other rules except __Objects__, excep=
t
>>> when specified otherwise.
>>>=20
>>> A. Definition
>>> Entities may take Actions permitted them in the Rules.  No non-Entity
>> Object
>>> may take Actions.  Actions are not Objects.
>=20
> Actually, making actions objects might be useful, especially when it come=
s to
> rolling the clock forward: just delete those action objects that need
> deleting, then re-perform the rest.  Course, then all actions would need =
to be
> uniquely identified...
>=20
>>> A.1. Effects of all Actions
>>> Whenever an Entity takes a non-proposal Action, if it has the Property
>>> Entropy, it's Entropy shall increase by .5.  If this equal increase is
>>> stated elsewhere in the rules, and is not stated to be a different
>> increase,
>>> then both increases shall be considered one, and eir Entropy shall
>> increase
>>> only by for both increases.  This section defers to all other rules and
>>> sections of rules, except as specified otherwise.
>>=20
>> only by for both increases? Not sure what you want to say there...
>=20
> This turns into apples and oranges with the earlier rule that said entrop=
y was
> calculated from 1/2 the non-proposal actions.  From a practical sense, ye=
s,
> this means a non-proposal action produces .5 entropy, but strictly speaki=
ng .5
> per action isn't the same as 1/2 of the number of actions.
>=20
>>> B. Restriction
>>> Any Action defined or referenced in any rule is a Restricted Action.
>>> Restricted Actions may only be taken when specifically permitted by the
>>> Rules.  Any Action which is not Restricted is Unrestricted.  Unrestrict=
ed
>>> Actions may be taken by any Entity at any time.  Unrestricted Actions d=
o
>> not
>>> change any Object, Property, or Value, including Rules and Proposals,
>=20
> So  rules are objects, properties or values?
>=20
>> and do
>>> not affect the game in any way, except as follows:
>>> Unrestricted Actions cause the normal change in Entropy, if applicable.
>>=20
>> What is considered to be an Unrestricted Action? You've never actually
>> defined Action - does my raising my hand count as an 'Action'? How about=
 if
>> I pick my nose, or take my yearly bath?
>=20
> Then you'll have to return my green shirt.

Awww, but I wanted that shirt. :(

Wait a minute - you've already admitted to having but one shirt that isn't
green, and now you reveal that you only have one green shirt?
Y'ever wonder if there's such thing as gettin' TOO involved in a game?

>>> Unrestricted Actions are part of posts in Public Forums, and may cause
>>> events related to posts, but not the actual content of the Unrestricted
>>> Action
>>=20
>> Ah, so it has to be in a post. Still, does, for example, the post itself
>> count as an Action?
>=20
> Give me time and I will come up with a way to make gremlins perform actio=
ns
> without being told that aren't listed in the rules.  Would such actions b=
e
> restricted since there must be some indirect mechanism to permit them,
> unrestricted since they aren't listed in the rules, or neither since they=
're
> not part of posts in public forums?
>=20
>>> Unrestricted Actions may be processed by and may affect the judgement o=
f
>>> Independent Entities.  Note that this processing and affection of
>> judgement
>>> are completly beyond the control of the Action (ie, an Unrestricted
>> Actions
>>> can't say "Wonko decides to vote 'no' on all ballots this week" and mak=
e
>> it
>>> so; however, as a result of processing an Action, may decide so of ier
>> own
>>> free will).
>>=20
>> completly -> completely; ier -> eir; You've used 'this' in front of
>> something you later used 'are' for (processing and affection of judgemen=
t)
>> -
>> is it singular or plural?
>> Judgement is actually spelt Judgment
>=20
> Spelt is a kind of european wheat.  So judgement is sort of judgment bran=
?

spell v. spelled or spelt , spelling, spells.
=8Btr.
1. To name or write in order the letters constituting (a word or part of a
word).
2. To constitute the letters of (a word).
3. To add up to; signify.
=8Bintr.
To form words by means of letters.

=8Bphrasal verbs.
spell down.
To defeat in a spelling bee.
spell out.
1. To make perfectly clear and understandable.
2. To read slowly and laboriously.
3. To puzzle out; comprehend by study.

spelt 1  n.
A hardy wheat grown mostly in Europe.

spelt 2  v.
 A past tense and a past participle of spell1.





> And how is judgement or judgment defined in this context?  I assure you I=
'm
> not going to get drunk on any action taken in this game.  Unconscious fro=
m
> laughing too hard, maybe, but not drunk.

Nomic doesn't drunken you? I get drunk all the time 'cause of all them
flyin' gnomes!

>>> C. Performance of Actions
>>> An Action is attempted by either a Rule saying an Entity does it, or by
>> an
>>> Entity stating that e does it in a Public Forum.  Actions may only be
>> taken
>>> while The Clock is On.
>>=20
>> So, for example, the admin could not end a Road Trip while the Clock was
>> Off, because that would be an action?
>=20
> Have we determined that the administrator is an entity?

Under the current ruleset e is - e's a single object, and that's the SE
definition. (Pity I banned non-player societal initial members, it would
have been interesting to make the ruleset part of a society...)

>>> If any Action cannot be completed in part, then the entire Action fails=
,
>> and
>>> does not happen.  The only Event that happens is that the Acting Entity
>>> tried to perform the Action; The Action does not happen.  Valid Targets
>> must
>>> be specifiedIf there is no valid Targets for an action (if that action
>> has
>>> targets), then the Action fails.
>>=20
>> specifiedIf -> specified; If
>=20
> "cannot be completed in part" -- an action must contain sub-actions?

I think e means "if one effect of the action is illegal".

>>> D. List of Restricted Actions
>>> The following Actions are Restricted.  Parentheses seperate parts of a
>>> senctence in this section, and are used for clarity.  Other Restricted
>>> Actions may be defined elsewhere.  If any Action listed in this Rule is
>>> defined in another Rule, this definition supercedes the other, unless
>> such
>>> definition's intent is to define additional effects or qualifications o=
f
>> the
>>> Action, in which case the Effects defined at both are true, unless such
>>> truth would directly result in a paradox or is impossible, in which the
>>> definition not listed here is entirely null and void.  This section up =
to
>>> this point takes precedence over all other Rules and parts of them,
>> except
>>> when specified otherwise.  Notes are addtional Rules.  Wording is an
>>> alternate way to state an action, and may be adjusted for proper gramma=
r.
>>> In Wording, '<>' are used to deliniate either Values or plain English
>> text,
>>> and may include names and pronouns
>=20
> The Wheel of Precedence seems to get re-invented multiple times in this
> proposal...

That gives me another sub-game idea...

>>> Action: Move
>>> Action: Jump
>>> Action: Throw
>>> Action: Launch
>>> Action: Give
>>> Action: Refuse
>>> Action: Exchange
>=20
> These all appear to be grid actions.  I think I'd rather see grid actions
> enclosed in a grid rule, which can be conveniently repealed in its entire=
ty,
> leaving the rest of the ruleset standing.
>=20
>>> }}
>>> {{__Events__
>>> Events are things that happen.  The following are events:
>>> Any Object is created, modified or destroyed (including rules and
>> proposals)
>>> Any Action is attempted
>>> Any Action is completed
>>> Any Action is failed
>>> }}
>> You'll probably want a closing }} here...
>>=20
>> Other than that, I like it. Good Job.
>=20
> Okay.  I didn't read this that closely the first time it was posted...I
> figured I'd have time to read it once it got formally proposed.  Silly of=
 me.
> As it is, I've cut out sections I'm not commenting on at this time.  And =
I
> kick Wonko in the ass for having performed the act of Unbridled Hostility=
 of
> stuffing my mail archive with 37k messages.
>=20
> But this time around I've noticed a couple things: (1) a strong resemblan=
ce to
> Microsoft Visual Basic documentation; and (2) a tendency to blend the
> syntactical with the existential.  Both of these would make a certain amo=
unt
> of sense if you were detailing how to textually represent the gamestate s=
uch
> that it can be loaded into a relational database, but they're not as usef=
ul
> when trying to understand what something IS.  A collection of things is n=
ot a
> list, and certainly not a semicolon-delimited list; it is a collection of
> things.  The plurality of things isn't necessarily determined by whether =
a
> thing is referenced with a parenthesized number following it, and I'm not=
 sure
> it's actually useful to prevent me from saying, "an earth gnome, and anot=
her
> earth gnome, and yet another earth gnome".
>=20
> OiaS is trying to define, I think, a hierarchical database.  I personally
> think this is inadequate to define the game.

There are some points of the game in regards to which I would agree with
your statement. Wow, that was ugly grammar. Lemme try again: I would agree
with your statement in regards to some points of the game.
However, there are large areas of the game which could be put into a
hierarchical database, and I think it would make things easier if they were=
.

--=20
Wonko